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Smolenskian to Russian, Polatskian and Severian to Ruthenian.

Actually Ruthenian (later Ukrainian and Belarusian), Russian and Novgorodian started to emerge from the Old East Slavic in the XIII – XIV centuries around the strongest regional powers – Lithuania, Muscovy and Novgorod respectively (Novgorodian was much later integrated in the Russian).

So I would put Halychian, Volhynian, Ruthenian (Kyivan/Ukrainian?), Severian cultures under Ruthenian language – Ukrainian dialect.

Polesian and Polatskian cultures under Ruthenian language – Belarusian dialect.

Smolenskian, Muscovite, Novgorodian, Pomor under Russian Language.

Also I see a separate Ryazanian culture as a good idea too.
Dividing East Slavic into Ruthenian and Russian is excessive in 1337 and both "languages" were referred the same at the time as "Rus language" both in Polish-Lithuanian documents and Muscovite documents. We can argue that they should be divided because they actually divided later in history, but Project Caesar uses language pretty freely, look at Low German, Rhaeto-Romance and Arpitan, which are technically their own things but presented as dialects at best
Smolenskian is evidenced pretty strongly to evolve into Belarusian, often grouped with Polotskian dialect as one
 
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The problem is that if we start to divide based on standards, we will make almost everything that is currently represented as a dialect a separate language.

  1. Dialects are for flavour, and for that, we need unique to the dialect names.
  2. Unique to the dialect names come from unique to dialect sources.
  3. Those sources probably will also include texts, not just names
  4. From those texts, we can deduce that dialects are separate languages as it was clearly a separate thing.

Sweedish was a thing in 1225
Middle Low German has been documented in writing since about 1225/34
And Novgorodian is found in birch bark writings, dating from the 11th to 15th centuries
Venetian was first attested in writing in the 13th century.

For all those cases there are quite a lot of sources as I understand

And all of that is not translated. You can also make claims like: How much influence did the German language have on Scandinavian, will that be enough to make it separate from Norwegian?

That's why I think first we need to know the methodology upon which they separate the languages. From my experience, the difference between modern German dialects from the North and the South is much more severe than between modern East Slavic languages. But it also can boil down to when I learned them.

I agree that the terms "language" and "dialect" should be better defined (although controversy would exist in any case). The "languages" used in the game are sometimes more similar to language groups, and sometimes they are actual languages. For example, we have "Scandinavian" and "Baltic" languages, but Cisalpine is different from Italian, and Portuguese is different from Spanish (instead of one Iberian language). I think the developers previously mentioned that they didn't want to weaken some dialects by splitting them into full languages. However, since the size of languages already differs greatly, maintaining historical accuracy should be preferable, if it's possible to do so.

As for the difference between a language and a dialect, it is often controversial, but with the inclusion of court and market languages, it can come down to these criteria (which of course could be expanded or revised):

1) Whether the language was or could have been used in government, as the language of administration, laws, or legal documents (e.g., court language).

2) Whether the language was used in commerce, trade, and craftsmanship (e.g., market language).

3) Whether the language was standardized (whatever that means) and has grammars, dictionaries, other linguistic works, and high literature.

It’s hard to find a sphere of life where Ruthenian wasn’t used in the EU5 timeline (except for liturgy). Furthermore, the West Slavic language was recently split into Lechitic and Czechoslovak, so East Slavic should be split too if we want to be consistent.
 
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I agree that the terms "language" and "dialect" should be better defined (although controversy would exist in any case). The "languages" used in the game are sometimes more similar to language groups, and sometimes they are actual languages. For example, we have "Scandinavian" and "Baltic" languages, but Cisalpine is different from Italian, and Portuguese is different from Spanish (instead of one Iberian language). I think the developers previously mentioned that they didn't want to weaken some dialects by splitting them into full languages. However, since the size of languages already differs greatly, maintaining historical accuracy should be preferable, if it's possible to do so.

As for the difference between a language and a dialect, it is often controversial, but with the inclusion of court and market languages, it can come down to these criteria (which of course could be expanded or revised):

1) Whether the language was or could have been used in government, as the language of administration, laws, or legal documents (e.g., court language).

2) Whether the language was used in commerce, trade, and craftsmanship (e.g., market language).

3) Whether the language was standardized (whatever that means) and has grammars, dictionaries, other linguistic works, and high literature.

It’s hard to find a sphere of life where Ruthenian wasn’t used in the EU5 timeline (except for liturgy). Furthermore, the West Slavic language was recently split into Lechitic and Czechoslovak, so East Slavic should be split too if we want to be consistent.

As I have outlined, with those criteria every dialect will be split.

Low German was a market language
Swedish was used for lawmaking iirc
Middle Dutch has an entire article on Wikipedia of everything that was written on it
Venetian was a Lingua Franca in the sea.

I do think Iberian split to Spanish and Portuguese is a developer bias, and they should be merged. Italian feedback thread is arguing for uniting Cisalpine and Italian. And weakening is not only about the area.
 
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Did you kill Silesian dialect and made it Polish? Since their purpose is custom names, going through with modern Silesian names is anachronistic at most. Also have you finished the population map?
 
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@SaintDaveUK So, if we try to draw better culture/language/dialect maps based on the discussions above and what most people here agreed on, I would see it this way:
  • Ryazanian culture (could be also somehow called by Oka river, but I cannot think of a nice adjective) can be created to cover the lands far to the east of Smolensk and partially Chernihiv OR these lands can be just transfered to the Muscovite culture:
Cultures_With_Ryazanian.png Cultures_No_Ryazanian.png

  • Both options would make the language/dialect maps much more balanced:
Languages_Dialects.png


This makes the setup much more historic for the whole time frame and solves naming issues (like East Oka lands would have Belarusian characters).
 
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@SaintDaveUK So, if we try to draw better culture/language/dialect maps based on the discussions above and what most people here agreed on, I would see it this way:
  • Ryazanian culture (could be also somehow called by Oka river, but I cannot think of a nice adjective) can be created to cover the lands far to the east of Smolensk and partially Chernihiv OR these lands can be just transfered to the Muscovite culture:
View attachment 1221823 View attachment 1221821

  • Both options would make the language/dialect maps much more balanced:
View attachment 1221822

This makes the setup much more historic for almost the whole time frame and solves naming issues (like East Oka lands would have Belarusian characters).
can you copy it to Russia Tinto Talks also?
 
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could be also somehow called by Oka river, but I cannot think of a nice adjective

Upper Oka Principalities are known in Polish as "Księstwa Wierchowskie" and, according to Wikipedia, "Verkhovskie knyazhestva" in Russian, so maybe Verkhovian? But I am not sure the area you are talking about matches with Upper Oka Principalities.

I did not read the whole discussion, but calling anything "Russian" in 1337 seems extremely anachronistic (especially because Muscovites start calling themselves "Russian" because in their language in meant whole of Ruthenia, not a specific part of it). Also Novgorodian language has more claim to be separate language in 1337 than splitting Russian and Ruthenian. To the point that some suggest that so called Old Novgorod dialect was in completely separate North Slavic branch of Slavic languages.
 
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Upper Oka Principalities are known in Polish as "Księstwa Wierchowskie" and, according to Wikipedia, "Verkhovskie knyazhestva" in Russian, so maybe Verkhovian? But I am not sure the area you are talking about matches with Upper Oka Principalities.

I did not read the whole discussion, but calling anything "Russian" in 1337 seems extremely anachronistic (especially because Muscovites start calling themselves "Russian" because in their language in meant whole of Ruthenia, not a specific part of it). Also Novgorodian language has more claim to be separate language in 1337 than splitting Russian and Ruthenian. To the point that some suggest that so called Old Novgorod dialect was in completely separate North Slavic branch of Slavic languages.
Personally I kind of think that there doesn't need to be more than one East Slavic language, not any more than there needs to be more than one Scandinavian language. Splitting it into "Russian" and "Ruthenian" is weird because as you say, they're really just synonyms that have reached English from different sources.
 
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Upper Oka Principalities are known in Polish as "Księstwa Wierchowskie" and, according to Wikipedia, "Verkhovskie knyazhestva" in Russian, so maybe Verkhovian? But I am not sure the area you are talking about matches with Upper Oka Principalities.

I did not read the whole discussion, but calling anything "Russian" in 1337 seems extremely anachronistic (especially because Muscovites start calling themselves "Russian" because in their language in meant whole of Ruthenia, not a specific part of it). Also Novgorodian language has more claim to be separate language in 1337 than splitting Russian and Ruthenian. To the point that some suggest that so called Old Novgorod dialect was in completely separate North Slavic branch of Slavic languages.
Old Novgorodian or Ancient Novgorod dialect is the Old East Slavic. North Slavic branch is not supported by researchers at all. It was used more as a grouping of West and East Slavic rather than a separate branch.
 
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Personally I kind of think that there doesn't need to be more than one East Slavic language, not any more than there needs to be more than one Scandinavian language. Splitting it into "Russian" and "Ruthenian" is weird because as you say, they're really just synonyms that have reached English from different sources.
Synonyms because everyone still called it so and we can differentiate them in this way, but the languages were different and started to emerge since the Mongolian invasion.
Ruthenian language is also called Old Ukrainian in Ukraine, Old Belarusian in Belarus or just Simple Language (Prosta mova) in both countries (meaning the language of the people). None of these names would be appropriate here.

And also, lots scientists do not even concider East Slavic as a proper language at all, but just as a uniting term for dozens of various inhomogeneous East Slavic dialects of the Kyivan Rus.

And in any case, East Slavic can be kind of actual for CK3 timeframe, not EU5/PC.
 
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Upper Oka Principalities are known in Polish as "Księstwa Wierchowskie" and, according to Wikipedia, "Verkhovskie knyazhestva" in Russian, so maybe Verkhovian? But I am not sure the area you are talking about matches with Upper Oka Principalities.

I did not read the whole discussion, but calling anything "Russian" in 1337 seems extremely anachronistic (especially because Muscovites start calling themselves "Russian" because in their language in meant whole of Ruthenia, not a specific part of it). Also Novgorodian language has more claim to be separate language in 1337 than splitting Russian and Ruthenian. To the point that some suggest that so called Old Novgorod dialect was in completely separate North Slavic branch of Slavic languages.
That's interesting. Surprisingly, I have never heard this term even though I read a lot on the Rus history as a Ukrainian in all available languages :D .
But I'd probably prefer an option just to make those areas of Muscovite culture.

Concerning the Novgorodian Language, historically absolutely right.
But can anyone give any location or character name that would sound differently in Novgorodian and Russian in the game?
Or should they be different languages but share the same Russian dialect for naming purposes?
I don't know really. The same reason why whole England speaks English in the game, not Northumrtian and English languaged or dialects. There would be no unique flavour for Northumbrian dialect, as well as Novgorodian, unfortunately.
 
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That's interesting. Surprisingly, I have never heard this term even though I read a lot on the Rus history as a Ukrainian in all available languages :D .
But I'd probably prefer the option just to make those areas of Muscovite culture.

Concerning the Novgorodian Language, historically absolutely right, but can anyone give any location or character name that would sound differently in Novgorodian and Russian in the game? Or they should be different languages but share the same Russian dialect for naming purposes? I don't know. That is why whole England speaks English in the game, not Northumrtian and English. There would be no unique flavour for Northumbrian dialect, as well as Novgorodian, unfortunately.
There was already a source of list of Old Novgorodian names provided in this thread before, so maybe addition of Novgorodian as dialect of Russian can be justified by existence of this dialect content (although I dont think it would be possible to get unique locations names) . Rusyn also could be added as dialect of Ruthenian, but looks like Rusyn culture was cut in Balkan feedback.
 
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There was already a source of list of Old Novgorodian names provided in this thread before, so maybe addition of Novgorodian as dialect of Russian can be justified by existence of this dialect content. Rusyn also could be added as dialect of Ruthenian, but looks like Rusyn culture was cut in Balkan feedback.
That source is a fiction, something like a Fandom Art internet page :D.
Like: 'Let's imagine how Novgorodian would sound now if it was not crushed by Muscovy'. That is why it was then rejected.
(Btw, personally I would not mind if they'd used it to create a separate Novgorodian language. In the end it is a game and we know for sure that Novgorodian language existed)

Yes Pavia wrote, that now Rusyn culture is surely distinctive, but it is highly doubtful for the XIV century for them to be very different from the regular Halychians from the Carpathians, for example.
 
That source is a fiction, something like a Fandom Art internet page :D.
Like: 'Let's imagine how Novgorodian would sound now if it was not crushed by Muscovy'.

Yes Pavia wrote, that now Rusyn culture is surely distinctive, but it is highly doubtful for the XIV century for them to be very different from the regular Halychians from the Carpathians, for example.
Oh, I dont mean the first source but two more reliable ones provided afterwards.
 
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Synonyms because everyone still called it so and we can differentiate them in this way, but the languages were different and started to emerge since the Mongolian invasion.
Ruthenian language is also called Old Ukrainian in Ukraine, Old Belarusian in Belarus or just Simple Language (Prosta mova) in both countries (meaning the language of the people). None of these names would be appropriate here.

And also, lots scientists do not even concider East Slavic as a proper language at all, but just as a uniting term for dozens of various inhomogeneous East Slavic dialects of the Kyivan Rus.

And in any case, East Slavic can be kind of actual for CK3 timeframe, not EU5/PC.
And I'm sure the Danish and Swedish languages were also emerging and different in the same way at this time. Upper and Lower German were already different from each other. You have to remember what the cross-regional standard for the mechanic is.

Aside from this, I don't think there should be a language called "East Slavic", but a single language equating to East Slavic called "Ruthenian" or maybe "Russian".
 
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That source is a fiction, something like a Fandom Art internet page :D.
Like: 'Let's imagine how Novgorodian would sound now if it was not crushed by Muscovy'. That is why it was then rejected.
(Btw, personally I would not mind if they'd used it to create a separate Novgorodian language. In the end it is a game and we know for sure that Novgorodian language existed)

Yes Pavia wrote, that now Rusyn culture is surely distinctive, but it is highly doubtful for the XIV century for them to be very different from the regular Halychians from the Carpathians, for example.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Old_Novgorodian_given_names this i think they meant
 
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And I'm sure the Danish and Swedish languages were also emerging and different in the same way at this time. Upper and Lower German were already different from each other. You have to remember what the cross-regional standard for the mechanic is.

Aside from this, I don't think there should be a language called "East Slavic", but a single language equating to East Slavic called "Ruthenian" or maybe "Russian".
If Danish and Swedish were separate then they should be separate languages in the game too. If those who know Scandinavian languages consider this to be right.