Tinto Maps #9 Carpathia and Balkans Feedback

[I like wars and maps]

You have made it clear that voices like mine especially when they come from smaller nations like Albania arent taken seriously. I have supported this series for years, contributed historical insight, and shown passion for the games potential. If all that effort gets mocked and deleted, then your message is also clear: our perspective doesnt matter. So, Ill make my message equally clear-if respect is optional on your end, so is my support on mine. Best of luck selling a ‘historical’ game that chooses which histories are worth telling.

Considering the mods leave racism up might aswell @ them too seems like the rules only apply when they dont agree with whats being said. They clearly agree with it here. Always good to see rules be enforced in such a professional way.

 

[purplephoton]

You have made it clear that voices like mine especially when they come from smaller nations like Albania arent taken seriously. I have supported this series for years, contributed historical insight, and shown passion for the games potential. If all that effort gets mocked and deleted, then your message is also clear: our perspective doesnt matter. So, Ill make my message equally clear-if respect is optional on your end, so is my support on mine. Best of luck selling a ‘historical’ game that chooses which histories are worth telling.

>Tries to use Paradox's platform to argue in favor of doing something that would cost Paradox money.
>Tries to push a nationalist argument in a thread that almost got locked down because of nationalist arguments.
>Does not recognize that his best shot of making his voice heard is going to be in a year or two when Tinto is doing a pass of the Balkans.
>Lumps ArVass, Makkasag, and vikinglord together with Paradox and assumes forum lurkers are going to be the ones "selling" the game.
>Misrepresents ArVass's viewpoint after ArVass basically complimented him.
>Does not recognize Makkasag as a troll despite lurking in this thread, adds fuel to the fire instead.

Yeah... that ain't gonna go well...

 

[ArVass]

You have made it clear that voices like mine especially when they come from smaller nations like Albania arent taken seriously. I have supported this series for years, contributed historical insight, and shown passion for the games potential. If all that effort gets mocked and deleted, then your message is also clear: our perspective doesnt matter. So, Ill make my message equally clear-if respect is optional on your end, so is my support on mine. Best of luck selling a ‘historical’ game that chooses which histories are worth telling.

Dude I literally said you were based for it. I actually literally made a detailed proposal for Albania.

God forbid a man says anything I swear

 

[kagami1999]

>Tries to use Paradox's platform to argue in favor of doing something that would cost Paradox money.
>Tries to push a nationalist argument in a thread that almost got locked down because of nationalist arguments.
>Does not recognize that his best shot of making his voice heard is going to be in a year or two when Tinto is doing a pass of the Balkans.
>Lumps ArVass, Makkasag, and vikinglord together with Paradox and assumes forum lurkers are going to be the ones "selling" the game.
>Misrepresents ArVass's viewpoint after ArVass basically complimented him.
>Does not recognize Makkasag as a troll despite lurking in this thread, adds fuel to the fire instead.

Yeah... that ain't gonna go well...

He's right about this, though.

You have made it clear that voices like mine especially when they come from smaller nations like Albania arent taken seriously.

Other than Northern Dobruja's shape getting changed waaaaaay at the beginning of tinto talks, I legit can't think of a single suggestion for Bulgaria which made it into the game, which begs the question what the point of these threads even was? I saw good, reasonable suggestions pile up in the eu4 subforum for a decade which never got implemented, so I figured it would be like this, but that didn't stop a lot of users from criticizing me for being negative before the feedback thread was out. Well, it's been out, and those same people are now the ones reassuring us that in a year or two paradox will finally get to fixing the Balkans. I get it, there's a subsection of users, high on hype, who will defend the devs' decisions no matter what, and it's not like most players really care about the map outside of Western Europe, but the way this whole thing was handled left a bad taste in my mouth. I just wish Paradox had been more transparent from the start about how willing they were to deviate from their vision so that I and a bunch of other people wouldn't have wasted their time reading and writing so much.

 

[Inzano]

He's right about this, though.

Other than Northern Dobruja's shape getting changed waaaaaay at the beginning of tinto talks, I legit can't think of a single suggestion for Bulgaria which made it into the game, which begs the question what the point of these threads even was? I saw good, reasonable suggestions pile up in the eu4 subforum for a decade which never got implemented, so I figured it would be like this, but that didn't stop a lot of users from criticizing me for being negative before the feedback thread was out. Well, it's been out, and those same people are now the ones reassuring us that in a year or two paradox will finally get to fixing the Balkans. I get it, there's a subsection of users, high on hype, who will defend the devs' decisions no matter what, and it's not like most players really care about the map outside of Western Europe, but the way this whole thing was handled left a bad taste in my mouth. I just wish Paradox had been more transparent from the start about how willing they were to deviate from their vision so that I and a bunch of other people wouldn't have wasted their time reading and writing so much.

It bothers me that Great Britain gets new feedback within the feedback loop, in a short period of time. But when you ask for feedback on the Balkans or Germany, there is no response. It's as if our opinions are not equivalent from a regional perspective.

 

[kagami1999]

It bothers me that Great Britain gets new feedback within the feedback loop, in a short period of time. But when you ask for feedback on the Balkans or Germany, there is no response. It's as if our opinions are not equivalent from a regional perspective.

Welcome to the Balkans, bro. In spite of our ancient grievances, we can all find solidarity in being neglected by le swedish map game company.

 

[Ispil]

It bothers me that Great Britain gets new feedback within the feedback loop, in a short period of time. But when you ask for feedback on the Balkans or Germany, there is no response. It's as if our opinions are not equivalent from a regional perspective.

It's more like they have one content person who does content all over the place but also happens to be the person doing all the regions stuff for Great Britain specifically and can afford to constantly give feedback and the like, over and over.

Which is also why the feedback took forever to get in the first place; they were working on not other portions of the map, but other portions of the rest of their job in which the map particulars are but a small part.

 

[Kotyk-durkotyk]

I am not from the Balkans and I have no clue how Albania should be properly portrayed on micro level, but when I see this map with that ‘Northern Greece’ snake, I can really understand the frustration, honestly.
Even to me as a neutral viewer it does not make any sense, neither geographically, nor historically, nor aesthetically.
Even ‘consistency’ argument will not work here, since Albania (Epirus, Illyria, whatsoever) area would be bigger than tiny Morea or Apulia, there are plenty of areas consisting of 3 provinces elsewhere.
Such a small and obvious detail, but supports the concerns quite a lot.

 

[cumaethor]

Such a small and obvious detail, but supports Enea’s sentiment quite a lot.

You didn't read his original post. He 1000% in the wrong. His post was deleted not for his opinion on the game, but for calling and organizing open boycott and organizing mass dislike of the game.

 

[Kotyk-durkotyk]

You didn't read his original post. He 1000% in the wrong. His post was deleted not for his opinion on the game, but for calling and organizing open boycott and organizing mass dislike of the game.

Ok, did not know about that.
So, I meant only the ‘frustration part’, supported by other users in the last messages.

 

[I like wars and maps]

>Tries to use Paradox's platform to argue in favor of doing something that would cost Paradox money.
>Tries to push a nationalist argument in a thread that almost got locked down because of nationalist arguments.
>Does not recognize that his best shot of making his voice heard is going to be in a year or two when Tinto is doing a pass of the Balkans.

I dont think we will see reworks of maps happen at all with new dlc releases and updates like they did in EU4. They can use whatever excuse they want from "modders will be sad they need to update" to "we think the map is already perfect" to not bother. It wont affect dlc sales anyway add some mission slop plus that allows Byzantine to instantly convert all turks into greeks by pressing the mission button and you are guaranteed infinite money. Those people arent that interested in if Bulgaria borders Hungary or not.

 

[kagami1999]

I dont think we will see reworks of maps happen at all with new dlc releases and updates like they did in EU4. They can use whatever excuse they want from "modders will be sad they need to update" to "we think the map is already perfect" to not bother. It wont affect dlc sales anyway add some mission slop plus that allows Byzantine to instantly convert all turks into greeks by pressing the mission button and you are guaranteed infinite money. Those people arent that interested in if Bulgaria borders Hungary or not.

This is what gets to me, Hungary and Bulgaria sharing a border in 1337 is one of the most grounded, uncontroversial suggestions in this thread and yet it was shot down so arbitrarily. Pavia also says that the Despotate of Karvuna will spawn by event sometime after the start date, but by all logical accounts the polity already existed during the 1320s. There are even more glaring issues, Plovdiv (a major city!) isn't supposed to be part of Bulgaria in 1337 (it was seized from Byzantium in 1344, oh, and it's supposed to be south of the Maritsa, not north of it), yet even that they get wrong. There's no way that I can look at all of this and not lose confidence in the devs, it demonstrates either an exceptionally poor, cursory understanding of history or a conscious choice to pursue a certain vision in spite of history.

 

[philiko20]

It should be spelled "Lardéa" not "Ladréa". Minor spelling mistake, I know, but just so the team doesn't forget it. I guess the three other locations:
(Aytos/Aetós, Rusokastro/Rousókastron and Burgas/Pýrgos) will get their Greek exonyms when the time comes..

 

[Aldaron]

This is what gets to me, Hungary and Bulgaria sharing a border in 1337 is one of the most grounded, uncontroversial suggestions in this thread and yet it was shot down so arbitrarily. Pavia also says that the Despotate of Karvuna will spawn by event sometime after the start date, but by all logical accounts the polity already existed during the 1320s. There are even more glaring issues, Plovdiv (a major city!) isn't supposed to be part of Bulgaria in 1337 (it was seized from Byzantium in 1344, oh, and it's supposed to be south of the Maritsa, not north of it), yet even that they get wrong. There's no way that I can look at all of this and not lose confidence in the devs, it demonstrates either an exceptionally poor, cursory understanding of history or a conscious choice to pursue a certain vision in spite of history.

First of all, chill a bit.

Second, in this very thread it has already been said how the invasion of Hungary to Bulgaria was through Wallachia. Hungary and Bulgaria do not need to share a border.

Third, the existence of the Despotate is one of those things quite up to interpretation/debate. There is not a clear and undisputed source that proves its existence, at most we can guess.

Fourth, Plovdiv is actually ingame on the correct side of the Maritsa.

Fifth, suggestions are only that. We do check them, research them to check that things are correct and implement them when our schedule allows if we agree to introduce them.

I do not like policing people, so feel free to think whatever you want. I also have no intention of looking for a confrontation, but people should really calm down a bit and be more respectful, nobody here is trying to downplay any region.

Hopefully this post gets us all to a better place.

 

[otaats]

@EneaBako How could Shkoder be a tributary state if it was controlled by Serbian princes since times of Jovan Vladimir? I have never seen a map of Serbia (and Dioclea by extension) between 800-1420s without Shkoder/Skadar. It's pretty well documented, since Nemanjić had a tradition of placing direct heirs as administrators of Skadar (such was the case with Dušan - he did his ruling practice 101 stuff there).

Now this is not an argument for having Serbian majority or anything.

 

[ArVass]

How could Shkoder be a tributary state if it was controlled by Serbian princes since times of Jovan Vladimir?

I think you are replying to the wrong person/comment

 

[otaats]

I think you are replying to the wrong person/comment

Oh, you're right.

 

[Fehervari]

Rough estimate for population of large-ish (2500<) settlements or settlement clusters (not locations) in Hungary. The estimation utilises the number of "factors of interest" (local existence of parishes, provostries, ecclesiastic centres, places of authentication, markets, fairs, privilege, paulines, friaries) and multiplies with 510 (country average). Using country average is not the most optimal approach, but it still gives us more or less okay estimates:

FULL_NAME	COUNTY	Population		xcoord	ycoord
Buda-Óbuda	Pilis	14790		19,03385​	47,50175​
Esztergom	Esztergom	13260		18,73521​	47,79695​
Várad	Bihar	11730		21,94703​	47,05313​
Pécs	Baranya	9690		18,22799​	46,07712​
Székesfehérvár	Fejér	8670		18,41002​	47,19055​
Zágráb	Zágráb	8160		15,97851​	45,81543​
Eger	Heves	7140		20,37323​	47,89933​
Nyitra	Nyitra	7140		18,07638​	48,30614​
Győr	Győr	6630		17,63438​	47,68824​
Veszprém	Veszprém	6120		17,9015​	47,09801​
Eperjes-Sóvár-Nagysáros	Sáros	5100		21,23931​	49,00183​
Sárospatak (Satoraljaujhely)	Zemplén	5100		21,56873​	48,31969​
Bodrog-Hajszentlorinc (Bodrogsziget)	Bodrog	4590		16,61312​	45,74871​
Gyulafehervár	Erdélyi Fehér	4590		18,97408​	45,79247​
Csázma	Körös	4590		23,56984​	46,06756​
Bács	Bács	4080		22,85759​	47,80167​
Csanád	Csanád	4080		19,13457​	47,77055​
Vác	Nógrád	4080		20,58517​	46,13679​
Pozsony	Pozsony	4080		17,11216​	48,14445​
Szatmár-Németi	Szatmár	4080		20,75167​	49,00009​
Szepesváralja (Almás)	Szepes	4080		16,80193​	47,04966​
Vasvár	Vas	4080		19,23648​	45,39273​
Kassa	Abaúj	3570		21,25884​	48,72046​
Kolozsvár (Kolozsmonostor)	Kolozs	3570		22,02778​	48,46389​
Kalocsa	Solt	3570		23,58978​	46,76771​
Lelesz	Zemplén	3570		18,98404​	46,52812​
Pécsvárad	Baranya	3060		18,97334​	47,78297​
Garamszentbenedek (Petend)	Bars	3060		19,62097​	44,9795​
Dés-Désakna	Belső-Szolnok	3060		16,59803​	47,68908​
Visegrád (Domos)	Pilis	3060		18,41377​	46,15867​
Sopron	Sopron	3060		23,87873​	47,14159​
Szavaszentdemeter	Szerem	3060		18,55904​	48,34558​
Szekszárd (Hidas-Ebes-Csatar)	Tolna	3060		18,4937​	46,25746​
Zalalovo (Keresztur, Pacsa, Szentandras, Szelce)	Zala	3060		16,60635​	46,84829​
Titel	Bács	2550		20,14824​	46,24837​
Szeged	Csongrad	2550		24,4891​	47,13926​
Ság	Hont	2550		17,59192​	48,37898​
Zdenci (Veliki?)	Körös	2550		23,79711​	46,56468​
Pozsega	Pozsega	2550		25,6012​	45,65798​
Nagyszombat	Pozsony	2550		20,29132​	45,20455​
Somogyvár	Somogy	2550		24,15272​	45,79777​
Karos-(Komár)	Somogy	2550		17,72644​	45,43026​
Beszterce	Szászföld	2550		18,80475​	48,973​
Brassó	Szászföld	2550		17,09101​	45,6645​
Nagyszeben	Szászföld	2550		18,95​	48,075​
Torda	Torda	2550		17,38554​	45,83165​
Zniováralja	Turóc	2550		17,65016​	46,58323​
Verőce	Verőce	2550		17,12221​	46,55527​
Zalavár	Zala	2550		17,15683​	46,66996​

 

[purplephoton]

I figured it would be like this, but that didn't stop a lot of users from criticizing me for being negative before the feedback thread was out. Well, it's been out, and those same people are now the ones reassuring us that in a year or two paradox will finally get to fixing the Balkans. I get it, there's a subsection of users, high on hype, who will defend the devs' decisions no matter what, and it's not like most players really care about the map outside of Western Europe, but the way this whole thing was handled left a bad taste in my mouth.

I can't quite tell if you're lumping me into all four categories, but I'd like to point out that, despite hypothesizing that the Balkans will get a review in a few years and defending Tinto, I do in fact care about the map outside of Europe. If you don't believe me, go through any of the three Sub-Saharan Africa feedback threads. Or Central America. And I think I posted something in Maghreb as well.

 

[Inzano]

I can't quite tell if you're lumping me into all four categories, but I'd like to point out that, despite hypothesizing that the Balkans will get a review in a few years and defending Tinto, I do in fact care about the map outside of Europe. If you don't believe me, go through any of the three Sub-Saharan Africa feedback threads. Or Central America. And I think I posted something in Maghreb as well.

I don't think it's a rule that most people outside of Europe don't care about other regions, it's more that if you don't know, for example, what it was like in Africa, you won't comment and make suggestions, you probably wouldn't give any, because it's stupid to spoil the picture. I also followed and liked those outside of Europe who were passionate and showed a lot of knowledge. But I didn't comment because most of my knowledge of history comes from Southern Germany, Northern Italy, the Western Balkans. Elsewhere in Europe I have more than general knowledge. Outside of Europe, I only have a few bits and pieces. I suspect that many members of this forum have a similar opinion, which is why there are so few posts on threads outside of Europe.

I know you contributed a lot to the suggestions for African cultures and languages, I hope they will be taken into account.