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Tinto Maps #1 - 10th of May 2024 - Low Countries

Hello everybody, and welcome to the first post of Tinto Maps! This is a new weekly series that we will be running about the top-secret game Project Caesar.

Let me introduce myself before I continue, as some of you may get to know me from the development of the latest EUIV DLCs, but I might not be as well-known to everyone as Johan. I’m Pavía, the Content Design Lead at Paradox Tinto, which I joined in 2021. Before becoming a videogame developer, my background was as a Historian, which led me to work on a PhD. in Medieval History (fool me!), which I finished in 2020. Besides that, I’ve spent several thousands of hours of my life playing Paradox GSGs since I discovered and started playing Europa Universalis 20 years ago, in 2004.

What this new series will be about is quite straightforward: each week I will be sharing with you maps of a new different region, so you have an outlook of them and we are able to receive early feedback (because as you may already know from Johan’s Tinto Talks, there is still a lot of WIP stuff ongoing).

About this feedback, we’d like you to take into account a couple of things. The first is that we’ve worked really hard to gather the best sources of information available to craft the best possible map; we used GIS tools with several layers of historical map sources from academic works, geographical data, administrative data, etc., to help us ensure the desired quality. So we would appreciate getting specific suggestions backed by these types of sources, as others (let’s say, a Wikipedia map or YouTube video with no references) may not be reliable enough. The second thing to comment on is that sometimes a certain decision we made was an interpretation over an unclear source, while sometimes we have just plainly made some errors when crafting the map (which on a 30,000 location map is a normal thing, I guess). I’ll let you know when any of these happen, and I’m also going to ask for your understanding when an error or bug is found and confirmed as such.

With those forewords said, let’s start with today’s region: the Low Countries! This is what the political map looks like:

Countries.png

The regional situation in 1337. The counties of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeeland are ruled by William of Avesnes, who is married to Joanna, daughter of Duke John III of Brabant. Another John, the Duke of Luxembourg, might be the strongest power, as he is also the King of Bohemia. The County of Flanders is the wealthiest country in the region, controlling such important cities as Brugge and Ghent. Up in the north, we have other interesting countries, such as the Bishopric of Utrecht or the Republic of Frisia (you might notice that we're using a dynamic custom country name for them, 'Frisian Freedom').

And here we have the locations:

Locations.png

We had a fun bug for some time - Antwerpen didn’t have any pixels connected to the sea, which we found because we couldn’t build any type of port building there. There’s a happy ending, as the bug has already been corrected, and Antwerpen can finally have a proper port!

Provinces:

Provinces.jpg


Terrain (Climate, Topography, and Vegetation):

Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

We are aware that the Netherlands looked differently in the 14th century, as several land reclamations took place during the Late Medieval and Early Modern periods, but we are using a 20th-century version of the map for the sake of consistency. Most of the regions throughout the world would look quite different from nowadays, and documenting those changes (especially the coastline shapes) would be a non-trivial problem to resolve. As a side note, we already removed Flevoland from it, and have already identified some other modern ones that slipped through and we'll eventually remove them, as well.

Cultures:

Cultures.png

The stripes mean that there are pops of different culture inhabiting in those location. Also, the German and French cultures are WIP, we’ll show you a proper version on later Tinto Maps.

Religions:

Religions.png

Not many religions here yet, although there will be interesting religious stuff happening eventually…

Raw Goods:

Goods.png

Goods get regularly swapped around here and there to have a balance between geographical and historical accuracy, and gameplay purposes. So take this as the far-from-final current version of them.

And an additional map for this week:

Markets.png

We reinstated a Low Countries market centered on Antwerpen, after doing some balance tweaks that made it more viable.

And these are the maps for today! I hope that you have a nice weekend, and next Friday, we will travel down south, to Iberia!
 

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Why are Pearls a tradegood in the Low Countries? Pretty sure neither saltwater nor freshwater pearl clams lived there back then.

Zeeland is known for its mussels, but those don't make pearls.
Anyone got a clue?
 
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3. Lordship of Mechelen
Like Groningen, Mechelen was a small citystate located in its namesake province. Also like Groningen, it is in a confusing state of whether it is Flemish or independent. See in 1333 Liege gave the city to the county of Flanders, but the Flemish did not manage to fully assert their control there. In either case, in the screenshots it is owned by Brabant, which it shouldnt be.
According to Dutch wiki, it changed ownership 4 times in the 1330s with the only constant being a Brabantian claim, and it ending up with them (with "encarta" as their source). Do you know of a better source?
 
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Should fish and pearl etc exist in water locations? Then we can build some buildings to gather from sea, like you build fishing docks then you get boat company then they target a spesific sea location(you can manually target to) with fish, and if another country send into your tile too, you get dispute and efficiemcy of each boat company drops a little (applies if you send two of your fishing boat company to same location too)
I am okay with current system just wanted to suggest if it could be better
 
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Hey, Johan, I'm really worried about terraforming. The consistent issue PDX runs into is adding Rybinsk Reservoir to every single map, despite it only being built under Soviets. I assume that my Dutch brethren are also worried about their lands being misrepresented, although you've mentioned that swamp draining will be a thing for the Netherlands. I wonder how it will look like province-wise - will new territories be added? Will old ones change terrain type? Both? Neither, and opt in to simple modifiers?

Anyway, I'm looking forward to future map posts. I'll try to be as annoying as possible when I get my turn :) It's time to say enough to map anachronisms
 
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The Duchy of Limburg in this time should be part of the Duchy of Brabant. That was the case since the Battle of Woeringen in 1288.
If it's currently in a PU underneath Brabant, which might not be visible on the map, ignore this.

I think the province of "Kemptenland" is supposed to be named "Kempenland" (drop the "t") or "Texandria/Toxandria".

Is Flanders completely independent as it appears on the map or some sort of autonomous vassal of France (as it historically was)?
 
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Didnt expect this today but Pavía eres un grande (Ya lo sabes ;) )
 
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I think splitting Utrecht in half and naming the Eastern half Amersfoort would be a great addition, as it was an important location during the time period of the game!
 
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We had 3 options for the cultures:
1. Just go with Dutch, based on the language.
2. Portray the 4 regional variants/dialects of Middle Dutch (Flemish, Brabantic, Hollandic, Limburgic), plus Dutch Low Saxon.
3. Opting for an intermediate level, grouping Flemish, Brabantic, and Limburgic under Flemish, and Hollandic and Dutch Low Saxon groups under Dutch (as they also had a really close relationship). This is the one we decided to go to, for the moment.

We also discussed internally Overijssel and the Dutch Low Saxon region; as we have to review a bit the German cultures, it may change depending on that. And, in any case, we make this new series precisely to gather feedback, so we'll be reading opinions on this topic in the next few days. :)
As someone from the eastern Netherlands with Hollandic and Dutch Low Saxon roots, I feel like grouping the south together and leaving out Hollandic is really not ideal and feels like it's excluding Hollandic for no real reason. The other 2 options feel way better to show what it was like back then.

Also having the east of the Netherlands be included in Dutch feels really bad/sad, that region is always grouped with Dutch whilst that is really incorrect (it always had it's own local language and culture like the Frisians) so I really hope you change that when looking at the German region

I hope this does not sound unnecessary and annoying, like I said I'm from the region and I'm really passionate about it and wanted to share my opinion. Anyway thanks for the work you people put into this stuff it's really amazing! I also love that you guys are asking for feedback!
 
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According to Dutch wiki, it changed ownership 4 times in the 1330s with the only constant being a Brabantian claim, and it ending up with them (with "encarta" as their source). Do you know of a better source?
According to the same wikipage, the place was in Flemish hands up until somewhere in 1337 (date unclear), and afterwards was coruled by Brabant and Flanders, which, in my opinion, means Flanders has a stronger case for ownership of the province in 1337.
 
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There will always be complaints about cultures not being represented until every single province has a different culture. Then the complaints will begin about the groups being too small. :)
 
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I would like to point out that the region "Maasmechelen" in western Limburg doesn't include the town of Maasmechelen. Maybe it should be renamed to Borgloon or Tongeren? These two cities are more relevant for the region I think. I also believe that "Kemptenland" should be "Kempen" or "Kempenland" and it never included a "T". I might be wrong on this second point though. Otherwise this is absolutely amazingly accurate. (I am from this region).

On top of that, I believe you should extend the limburgish culture (under flemish) and kleverlands (under dutch) a bit into germany, towards the Düsseldorf.
 
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1715353369436.png


I understand Wikipedia isn't a great source, but shouldn't Frisia at least have some Livestock?

1715353432162.png


Also, if Bentheim is added, could we get have it produce Marble/Stone? As the place produced really pretty quartz-like sandstone.

1715353732991.png
 
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I hope that while doing Silesia you will portrait the languages correctly
as what I have readen from the forum, Polish language was still reaching cities like Legnica, Ziębice, Świdnica and Jelenia Góra in XIV Century

Here you have very usefull and historically Forum Topics from Polish History Forums website
(use internet archive wayback machine to get the photos that r unavaible due to the forums being very old)


Also wtf I couldnt post this with links bcz it said it is spam lol so I have to put it as a screenshot
1715353708484.png

Here as some maps from the Forums

Oh wait while looking at this Forum from wayback machine I found the map FROM 1333 (so the time when Project Ceaser takes place)
1333silesia.png


Linguistic map from XVII Century

dylnxh.gif



Linguistic map from XVIII/XIX Century

2h37pc2.gif
 
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Wait, Zeeland is a vassal of Holland at start ! :)
 
Quick question:

Any reason 's-Hertogenbosch is just spelled Hertogenbosch?

And I spy a blue Lippe :)

Why is Frisia called 'Frisian Freedom'?

Frisia could have the peasant republic government like Dithmarschen, which would be nice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peasant_republic


3 Drenthes, but no Bentheim. Travesty. Heck, any of these minor provinces would be richer than all of Drenthe haha.



View attachment 1130887



Drenthe is fine.... I guess. Just give us Bentheim please.

Just sent this to my Team (meme included).


Isn't Bentheim and Tecklenburg the same?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bentheim-Tecklenburg
 
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