Tinto Maps #2 - 17th of May 2024 - Iberia

[Pavía]

Was this region really that centralized in this period, compared to France for example?

Seems weird to me, seeing every region so decentralized but Iberia already consolidated into its powerhouses for the next century (Andorra and Mallorca aside).

Iberian feudal lords were much less powerful compared to their kings than the French ones.

 

[Pavía]

@Pavía I would like to know if it would be possible to add the Nation of Couto Misto / Couto Mixto / Coto Mixto (spelling changes depending on the language) it was an independent state during the X century up until the XIX century, it existed primarily in the galican municipality of Calvos de Randín between galicia and portugal, it was ruled has a Republic were the decision were made by a council of Judges.
It might be too small to be represented as a location on the map.

In case you read this another small change i would recommend would be to change the wine in the Alentejo region with horses has that region of the county is far more famous for its horse ranches than it's wineries / vineyards

It's too small even for the scale of this game, indeed.

 

[Pavía]

What percent of a population do minorities need to be before they show as striped?

Surprised there isn't a single town with a notable Sephardic or Jewish minority but I suppose that depends on my first question.

I don't remember it by heart, but there isn't more than a 5-10% Sephardic population in any Iberian location.

 

[Johan]

Is there a map mode that shows which provinces are cities and towns? If not, that might be a nice addition. If it already exists, please share

yes

 

[Johan]

Please consider going back to 'Catholic' 'Sunni' over the -ism. It just looks worse on a map and reads tinny and artificial compared to the more elegent old depiction.

We have both adjective and noun forms for religions. Its a 1 line change to change this for us, but am awaiting @SaintDaveUK for that, as language use and such things is his interests.

 

[Pavía]

I was wondering: was the extent of Islam and Andalusi culture already diminished that much in 1337? I thought the southern parts of Castille would see way more Sunni and Andalusi culture, especially the latter.

There was a huge relocation of the Muslim population of Andalusia after the Mudéjar Rebellion of 1264-1267; we've used the data of some fiscal censuses of the 1290s to establish how many mudéjares were still remaining.

 

[Pavía]

Marruecos never held that land. It was el sultanato Benimerin. Please correct it

That's the short name. The long dynamic name of the country is 'the Marinid Sultanate of Morocco'.

 

[Pavía]

What is the significance of the colors on the provincial mapmode? Aragon seems to be split by crown, is it something political or autonomy related?

Areas, it's another geographical layer.

 

[Pavía]

it must be stressed that Valencia was the biggest market for Aragon instead of Barcelona. You got it right on a different bookmark on EUIV, and the 14th Century was of even bigger importance for this market.

We already answered this some weeks ago:

My CD Team says that their research shows that those numbers are more akin to the 15th century, when Barcelona was in relative decadence, and Valencia in its golden age. In 1337, approximate numbers would be Barcelona about 25-35K, Valencia 20-25K, and Palma around 15-20K inhabitants; for that and other reasons, Barcelona was still the main trading center of the Crown of Aragon. We have a Castilian, a Catalan, an Aragonese, and a Basque on the team, so they have great fun discussing the historical setup for the Iberian Peninsula, and are also glad to receive feedback about it.

 

[Pavía]

won't this make Castile into a Big Yellow Blob, covering half of Europe by the 15th century? or is some system that ensures that decentralized countries aren't horribly inefficient when compared to centralized ones?

Castile will have its own set of challenges...

 

[Pavía]

Will the provinces be able to change shape by adding or removing locations to them in game?

They're fixed.

 

[Pavía]

just noticed there are spices being produced in Andalucia. out of curiosity, could you elaborate?
View attachment 1134480

So:

That was our conclusion. We had lots of different spices earlier, but at the end of the day it was "pop gets enough spices to be happy", so why add a few % extra performance cost for that?

Originally there was Saffron here, IIRC, which was converted into Spices. We have to test a bit more if this works, or if we need to make Spices a bit more scarce in Europe.

 

[Pavía]

You have Galicia really bad/poorly represented:

1) Territory (López Carreira, A. (2005). O reino medieval de Galicia.)
1.1) Why are you giving it the borders of a 20th century administrative divission (Comunidad Autónoma ~1980's)?
1.2) Galician borders until the 17th century (with an exception for the 16th century) included: Bierzo, Cabreira, Povoa/Pobra de Seabra (Puebla de Sanabria in Spanish), Eo-Navia (as part of Mondoñedo). Ponferrada was considered the "door of Galicia".
1.3) All the previously mentioned lands you put them in...Leon? Why?
1.4) I took that image so you have a visual idea about the landmarks:
View attachment 1134432
1.5) Cabreira, Seabra and Bierzo were under the house(s) of Lemos (1st Castros and 2nd Castros who had their center in Monforte de Lemos).


2) Culture (Dubert Garcia, F. (2004). Variedades xeolingüísticas e cultivo da lingua, crítica dunha hipótese sobre as orixes da fragmentación diatópica do galego.; Castro Moutinho, L. et ali. (2018). Estudos em variação linguística nas línguas românicas.; Luís Regueira, X. (2016). Variación lingüística, dialectoloxía e lingüística histórica: algúns problemas do cambio lingüístico en galego e en portugués.; about identity: González Lopo, D. (2003). Migraciones históricas de los gallegos en el espacio Peninsular (siglos XVI y XIX). Barros,C. (2016). A identidade galego-Portuguesa na Idade Media. USC.; Martins Ferreira, J. P. (2011). A Nobreza Galego-Portuguesa da Diocese de Tui (915-1381). Universidade do Porto.; Pazo Justo, C. (2011). A imagem da Galiza e dos galegos em Portugal entre fi ns do século XIX e primeiras décadas do XX: do imagotipo negativo ao imagotipo de afinidade), and a long etc.)
2.1) Aren't we speaking of a starting date in the 1330's? Galician and Portuguese were not different at all. Neither in identity terms (you have plenity of examples of Galicians and Portugueses been untraceable in documentation and working as locals in both places. I will put samples just of aristocrats, Nuno Freire de Andrade, Fernando Ruis de Castro, Inês de Castro, Joham Fernandes de Andeiro, Rodrigo Annes de Araujo, Pedro Álvares de Soutomaior, Joham de Novoa, etc.).
2.2) If u split Galician-Portuguese, you should do the same with Astur-Leonese (Asturian, Leonese, Mirandese), Spanish/Castillian (Castillian, Toletan, Sevillan, etc.), and as well with Catalonian (Catalan, Valencian, Mallorquine, Ibizenco, etc.). Just to be balanced and fair.
2.3) As that gonna make some spanish fanboys go crazy about the language stuff a little explanation. Look, they were not differences between Galicians and Portugueses. There were not sharp-cut, stright lines differences neither correspondences between what it was Galicia and what it was Portugal. There were several regional varieties that didn't follow any border (today u can still seeing its remains in the languge: some phoneme-use distribution, preferences of word use or grammatical preferences). F.E. Limian Galician was the same cultural variety as the one of Chaves, Ponte da Lima, etc. The one of Vigo and Tuy was as the one of Viana do Castelo and Braga. Obviously the one of Coímbra and Lisbon will not be the same thing as the one in Mondoñedo (but in the same order the Murcian "culture" would have "nothing" to do with that of Cantabria (despite being both Castillians).
2.4) Contact. Culture is built through contact. Galicia have hard passing mountains to the East (to Leon). While sea traveling was easy and cheap. From Coruña to Lisbon in the Middle and Modern Age it would take 2 or 3 days on boat (and there are tons of documents of this boats between Galician and Portuguese ports), while from Coruña to Burgos (land, and less distance) would take over a month.
2.5) So please stop spliting randomly (and in a stupid way tbh) Galician-Portuguese (as Paradox did in CK3 before even any document was written in that language).

PD.: just in case anyone is boored enough and want to consult how different Portuguese and GFalician culture was, please, check:
Corpus Xelmirez (https://ilg.usc.gal/xelmirez/)
Galaeciae Monumenta Historica (https://gmh.consellodacultura.gal/)
...Note, there are documents in Latin, French, English, Spanish, aside of those in Galician-Portuguese.

3) Population (Ladero Quesada, M. A. (2014). Población de las ciudades en la Baja Edad Media, Castilla, Aragón y Navarra. Real Academia de la Historia. p. 137.; Eiras Roel, A. (-). Una primera aproximación a la estructura demográfica urbana de Galicia en el Censo de 1787; Fernández Sordo, A. S. (2010). Historia urbana en la Galicia medieval, balance y perspectivas.)
3.1) As in all the previous games, you display Galicia as an undeveloped poor place, uninhabited. You even placed more inhabitants in the middle of the Meseta (drylands). It was not. It was pretty rich in fact.
3.2) Galicia was one of the most populated areas of the Iberian Peninsula during Middle Ages and Modern Era (7% of all the Crown of Castille in the 16th century).
3.3) About the development, for christ sake, we have the 2nd most sacred christian place, we have an economy around it, and in the past, a population income. Of course Compostela was not London, Paris or Barcelona, but it was pretty much developed.

4) Economics (Ferreira Priegue, E. (1998). Galicia en el comercio marítimo medieval.)
4.1) Again, the generic poor products, food and little valuable stuff. Any research.
4.2) Galicia was one of the main wine producers in the peninsula (shiped to England and Flandes).
4.3) Other products were, tin, iron and lead, salt, shipbuilding, fishing and seals, wood,

View attachment 1134445
Please be aware,
THE NAMES ON THIS MAP ARE "TRANSLATED" TO SPANISH, THEY ARE NOT THEIR LOCAL NAMES.
The map study the medieval economy in the 20th century administrative territory of Galicia (so not the Medieval Galician borders).
The image comes from Elisa Priego book, avaliable online for free.

5) Couto Misto
5.1) You have done a wonderful and crazy work over Germany and Central Europe. Seriously ayou are not able to include a Micro-State for the Couto Misto? Much more relevant that some German "sovereign" micro-towns under a 3rd line bishop.

6) History
6.1) I guess through the poor general state of research over Galicia that it will be during the play-through a paceful easy place. Tottaly wrong perception.
6.2) 1295~1310 Joham I Interregnum. Galician towns and Nobles declare king of Galicia (and León in Zamora) D. Joham I. Despite that seccession being solved in León pretty quick, it was not in Galicia, which remain rebel for around 10 years.
6.3) Portuguese-Castillian War of 1336-39. Galicia was a powerhouse of Portugese supporters.
6.4) 1351-69, 1st Castillian Civil War. Galicia was almost semi-independent ("desnaturalized") under the Castro Family that was a supporter of Pedro I.
6.5) 1369-82, Fernandine Wars. Galician towns and nobles proclaim Fernando I of Portugal as the Galician King.
6.6) 1383-85, Portuguese Interregnum. During this period Galicia was poorly or fully not controlled by Castille. Was as well a center of pro-Portuguese towns and lords. Some of the Towns proclaimed their fidelity to Portugal, others to Castille and others just remain silent. That's why some coastal towns were raided both by Portugueses and Castillians (Galician Campaign 1384).
6.7) 1386-87, Jhon of Gaunt. Galician towns proclaim Jhon of Gaunt and his wife (Constança) as king and queen. The black death force them to sign a treaty with the Castillians.
6.8) After that the kings of Castille seem to had little if no control of Galicia as being at war with the Hansa, Galician towns still trading with them. Even more Juan II of Castille had to sank Hanseatic-Galician convoys as he probably had no control of the port town of A Coruña (Apuntes para la Historia Sajona, Boletín de la Real Academia de la Historia, p. 31).
6.9) 1420. That economic toll probably lead to the burguers and paseant uprising of the "Primeira Irmandade".

I suggest you tone it down a bit because that won't help you make your point.

That said, we'll go through your feedback, as checking sources in detail is part of the job we're doing every day for Project Caesar. But we've already answered in other posts some of this stuff, like the naming inconsistency; e.g., 'Orense' in the location, and 'Ourense' in the province, which is not bad faith, but an overlook, that also happens in other places (Saragossa-Zaragoza).

 

[Johan]

I know but this seems still too much. Europe has 80m population in that time but only iberia has tens of millions in that picture as i can see

Wiki claims 6M in iberia, but sources we have has it at around the 9M we have in the game.

 

[Pavía]

Hi Valencian here! I love how this super secret project is going, but I want to make some suggestions about the old Kingdom of Valencia to ensure a better representation of the region.

Locations:

• As you stated, the Oriola (Orihuela) location should be split to give representation to Alacant (Alicante). Although this city was not as important at the start date (the aristocratic administration was built around Oriola), played a major role historically because it was a fast-growing merchant city (with a great presence of burgers later on) that over the years dethroned the importance of Oriola in regional importance.
• The location of Valencia is too big and misrepresented. The south of the Valencia location could be split to represent the important agricultural region around the Albufera. This was the first region to plant rice in the peninsula when the andalusians were there, and later was replicated in the Ebro Delta (Tortosa) and Seville (in the XX century). (Right now I don't have much time to show good sources, but this in Spanish can do: link 1). There's no good name for a location this big (using a city name, but you could use La Ribera) but I think you could use the city of Alzira as a placeholder. This was an important city at the moment (aristocratically) as this was the place where the James I the conqueror abdicated to his son and died.

Provinces:

• The province of Xativa should have Ayora.
• There should be a southern province named Oriola/Alacant (as you consider) to represent the old self-governing region of Oriola (it was officially created later, in 1366, but I think It should exist because of its later importance). This one could have the new Alacant location and Oriola. This source can give some clues (the catalan version is more updated than the english one. But either of them should be good) link 2. If, for gameplay reasons, there are too few locations to create a new province, you could also add an Elx (Elche) location to further divide the region (important agricultural city).

Culture:
There's a lot that should be revisited for historical accuracy. I'm no that expert, but I know that the most recent study was made by Vicent Baydal, a historicist and chronicler of Valencia years ago. In this article, you have the map that was presented by his studies: link 3. Notable changes be: Morella should have catalans, Oriola (also Alacant) should have catalans in that period (Oriola changed to spanish after the plague I think, but don't know when exactly, but around the start date... And I don't know the pop distribution, but there should be a lot of andalusians as their expulsion in later centuries was a big deal for the kingdom (if I recall correctly the kingdom lost a third of its pops)

Sorry for the long speech, I hope some of these suggestions can be taken into consideration!

Great and constructive feedback, thanks!

 

[Pavía]

Related to the morisco population the kingdom of valencia, I found some maps and information on this book that talks about them before they were expelled. The book is called Un conflicto nacional: Moriscos y cristianos viejos en Valencia, and you can find a bit of it here. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://books.google.com/books/about/Un_conflicto_nacional.html?id=HTXn_dSzo24C&ved=2ahUKEwi7qqmDkJWGAxVosFYBHc9WCDMQFnoECBUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw37dc1jMEuMfR6sAZ1Qem_v
As you probably know already, all the province of alicante was hit really hard and emptied by the moriscos expulsion.
Related to the markets of iberia, is also a bit weird how if you place it in Sevilla all the north is a bit out of reach. Maybe in 1300 it makes more sense for iberia to have a separate market in the north, which in the future would be merge with seville if you improve your infrastructure.

Initially there was a market in Burgos, but it was not playing very well. Again, take markets as not fixed, as we may tweak them recurrently during the development of the game.

 

[Pavía]

Amazing maps, I really enjoyed seeing my hometown there.

Just to let you know, circa 1330, on the chronicle of Muntaner, the historian says (Chapter XVII) that Murcia, Cartagena, Orihuela, Elche, Guardamar and Alicante were repopulated by catalans after the conquest, and catalan was currently spoken there. This should be specially strong in Cartagena, as there are many catalan surnames, many loanwords from catalan which are not used in any other places of Murcia and seseo inherited from catalan and unique from the area of Cartagena.

We might add some more Catalan pops there, now that you say; thanks for the call!

 

[Pavía]

Will there be a way to represent the constituent parts of the Crown of Aragon and the wars of the Union, when Aragon and Valencia rebelled? When Castile made Aragon have no access to a muslim border and further land expansion became impossible, Aragonese nobles wanted to ensure their privileges because of the new Mediterranean adventures of the Crown, as they had no way to expand in land. They enforced the privileges of the Union in 1287 that, among other things, made them immune from the king and made annual compulsory Cortes. In 1347, Valencia sublevated because of succession wanting the same rights as Aragon and forming the Union of Valencia. The king was defeated but in 1348 proceeded to beat the Aragonese and then the Valencians. He then proceded to punish the Valencias more severely than the Aragonese.

If Aragon had a system to represent the interests of the 3 main parts you could make civil wars like the War of the Union and the Catalonian Civil War happen when the king angers one of the constituent parts.

There might be.

 

[Pavía]

The location density in portugal is much less than in castille, you should at least split figueira da foz (the coast) from coimbra, maybe Sintra from Torres Vedras, Olhão (or maybe sagres is even better) from Lagos, Peniche from Leiria and a few more, maybe in terms of provinces even Beira into Beira Interior and Beira Litoral would be a good fit.
I just find it wierd that comparing to like Galiza Portugal has so much more chunky provinces and locations.

We're aware, I think that it might be possible to add some more density there (although I can't make a promise, you know).

 

[Pavía]

Feudalism in the Iberian Peninsula was different to the one of France and England, yes, but neither exist an "Iberian feudalism".

As for Portugal hardly anyone could support differenciate the vassals, it would not be the same for Castille (who had "Adelantados Mayores"), and much probably Aragón with its "Virreyes" and Consuls (for some areas).

In the case of Castille would be arguably much more accurate represent the "Adelantados" (some time local nobles, some times individuals from the royal family) as a sort of vassal than integrated territories (that they weren't all with the exceptions of those belonging to Castille before the Concordia of Benavente (1230)).
As well for Castille since the rise of the House of Trastamara the feudal model become much more similar to the French one.

I cannot speak as much for the case of Aragón as I do not know it very well.

'Adelantados Mayores', and before them the 'Merinos Mayores', were officials appointed by the Kings of Castile and León. They ranged from minor lords, to major lords ('ricoshombres'), to even the crown heir (as the infante Fernando de la Cerda, heir of Alfonso X until his death, who has appointed for some years 'Merino Mayor de León' to acquire government experience). And their main function was to exercise justice in the name of the king, plus some additional fiscal or military functions, depending on the territority. For instance, the 'Adelantado Mayor de Andalucía' was usually in charge of protecting 'la Frontera' from Muslim raids, and thus, prestigious nobles served in this position. I know this all well, because I devoted one chapter of my PhD. to the Merinos and Adelantados of Castile and León from their origins until the end reign of Alfonso X.

That is hardly equivalent to have them as landed vassals, as they were a layer of the royal administrative system, and there was a rotation in the position among different nobles. The whole Crown of Castile was divided in 4 'Adelantamientos': Castile, León, Galicia, Andalusia, plus a region with no jurisdiction from any 'adelantado', 'la Extremadura' (which is not the modern region of Extremadura, but the area that extends between river Duero and river Tagus).