Tinto Maps #2 - 17th of May 2024 - Iberia

[Pavía]

Regarding the topic related to how Zaragoza is named depending of the nation culture, will it be (at least with the cultures of the region) possible to have more culture located names, as for example if portugal owns Zaragoza it changes to Saragoça or Badajoz becoming Badalhouce?

Potentially, yes.

 

[Pavía]

What's the reasoning behind not representing the various military orders as on-map vassals? In 1337 the Order of Calatrava alone held significant lands in Andalusia and all of the military orders played a role in the next century plus of dynastic struggles within and between the Iberian crowns. It feels like that dynamic, plus their loyalty to the Pope, should elevate them out of the estate system.

By 1337, all the Iberian orders functionally worked as vassals of the Iberian rulers. The most representative case might be the Portuguese Order of Christ.

 

[Pavía]

Is there a strait crossing from Algeciras to Tangier(?)/Morocco?
And if so. Is there a possibility to add/mod dynamic strait crossings, instead of having fixed ones from start to finish that can't be (de-)activated in the middle of the run?

No, the maritime control over the Strait was very important in this period: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Strait

 

[Pavía]

In the countries map we can see a pinkish tag on the coast of France. I assume that Mallorca possessed. Can someone inform me on that because it seems fascinating.

It's the Lordship of Montpellier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lords_of_Montpellier

 

[Pavía]

Will some of the later replies at the first Tinto map thread also be looked at? Myself and many others only posted suggestions this week, as it took a while to do our own research before making suggestions

Yes.

 

[Pavía]

Beautiful maps!

Few questions/comments:

What is the name of the location between Llanes and Santander? It appears not to be labeled. Santillana or San Vicente?

I see you named most of modern-day Cantabria "Trasmiera" in the province view, however that name only really corresponds to the location of Laredo. Maybe you can consider changing this province to La Montaña, as this was a name used historically to refer to roughly this same area.

As for the vegetation of this region (I think by now you can guess where I'm from), it certainly be grassland after the 17th century or thereabouts due to massive deforestation feeding the shipbuilding industry, the cannon foundries at La Cavada, and pastures—at the start of the game it likely would have been more of a wooded environment.

Last one: I did the last 100km of the camino de Santiago last year, and the province of Lugo felt a lot hillier than that!

San Vicente de la Barquera. I think we're pushing the map mode too much with this one...

 

[Pavía]

Will we not get to see the true terrain map??
I know I am in the minority but I always play on the terrain map.. Do you plan on making the terrain map very detailed, because I have some ideas for that

yes.

we are not ready to show the 3d map yet

 

[Pavía]

Well, Galician here, happy to see that many locations in Galicia! However, couple of suggestions in our Atlantic corner of the Map:

-Wouldn't it be better to be a bit more consistent with naming conventions for locations? For example, if you're using Ourense for the name of the province (which I prefer since it is the proper Galician name), you shouldn't call the location Orense. In the same way, Villalba should be Vilalba and Viana del Bollo/Viana do Bolo. Ginzo de Limia, Tuy and Monterrey could stay that way since they were written like that sometimes in medieval times, but we Galicians now write those names as Xinzo de Limia, Tui and Monterrei. Otherwise, pretty good job with the locations and the naming all 7 medieval Galician provinces in 4 provinces.

-On the topic of vegetation, Monforte de Lemos should probably be considered farmlands, since its valley was one of the most fertile places of Galicia back then. Besides, even though we're quite hilly and there is a whole lot of woods here, you should probably add some extra grasslands in some locations. Vilalba and Lugo would be my best bets in that regard. Santiago could be hills as well as flatlands, though.

-There should probably be some Galician pops in Ponferrada, Villafranca del Bierzo and Puebla de Sanabria, since those locations were still a part of Galicia until the XV century and many people still speak Galician there even nowadays. Hell, I would even consider grouping those 3 locations as a distinct province from Leon altogether and call them Bierzo to represent an intermediate state between purely Galician territory and purely Leonese territory. But at least representing that those locations had a mix of Astur-Leonese and Galician speakers is a must with the great job you've done with all those locations!

-When it comes to raw goods, you've made an excelent job representing what resources we Galician produced and use back then. Congratulations, you've even added a tin producing province (those were quite important here, and there is even a proper Galician word noun to describe the profession of those that worked exclusively with tin: picheleiros). However, I must point out that we also worked iron here, specially around Lugo and Santiago, in pretty significant quantities as well. As a matter of fact, there are many names of places, squares, etc. That refer to the guilds working with iron, such as the praza da ferreiria in Pontevedra. Imo, at least one province in Galicia should have iron as a raw good, but that is only my opinion (5/10 recommendation). HOWEVER, WE SHOULD REALLY PRODUCE WINE SOMEWHERE (10/10). Galicia is a region of many different and widely acclaimed wines, after all, and our wine production really skyrocketed during the timeframe of Project Caesar. Thus, I think that at least one, and maybe even two or three locations should produce wine as a raw good. Fine candidates would be Monforte (to represent the Ribeira Sacra) Ourense (for the same reason) and Pontevedra (to represent the fine wines of the Rias Baixas). Stone should also definitely be produced somewhere (8/10 recommendation). All in all, Galician urban architecture relied heavily on stone, and we have been great granite producers at least since three centuries ago. Tuy would be a great province to represent this (granito d'O Porriño, no less).


Sorry if I've overdone my feedback. But seeing such a detailed map has really got me going. I can provide some sources if you will, but that would be my Galician feedback for the moment. Great maps and happy Dia das Letras Galegas (it is one of our national days here in Galicia and it is today)!

Thanks for the feedback, we'll consider most of it, including the Galician pops, although one minor comment/correction: El Bierzo and Sanabria were part of the Kingdom of León, not of Galicia, which is clear after the 12th century when their merinos were under the jurisdiction of the Merino Mayor de León.

 

[Pavía]

Jaén has a typo in its location name, its missing its accent

Fixed!

 

[Pavía]

My notes regarding Aragón:

Regarding locations

• Ejea de los Caballeros would be better named "Cinco Villas". It is the name of the shire itself, and whilst Ejea is the main city nowadayw, it was not always the case. Until modern times Sos or Uncastillo were also highly relevant.
• The Barbastro/Ainsa/Fraga area split is a bit weird. Barbastro should not go so much into the north, since you enter a different terrain. For example, in https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archivo:Sobrecollidas_d'o_Reino_d'Aragón.svg you can see medieval Aragon tax district and in https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Comarcas_de_Aragón#/media/Archivo:Comarcas_de_Aragón.png the modern shire division. Aínsa should extend more to the East, until Benabarre and Barbastro should in change take the northern part of Fraga. Othewise it does not fit the valleys and historical connection between the areas. Note even today the N-260 goes East-West instead of North-south
• Tarazona would be better be split between Tarazona and Borja. I may be biased here, but for me it makes a lot of sense: you can't otherwise properly represent historical events like the War of the Two Peters in which Castille ocuppied Tarazona but not Borja. Also, the valleys there are north-South, so Tarazona should cover the Queiles River, with Borja covering the Huecha River.

The rest is quite ok and I congratulate you on following Daroca's Community historical borders rather than modern division. I had however expected a bit more granularity

Religion

• The sunni minority in Ejea is quite surprising. While I know a few references to muslim exaricos in the XII century, it seems to be a clear minority there with Ejea, El Frago, Castiliscar etc being mainly repopulated by Christians.
• The opposite happens around Belchite. The area of current Belchite/Calanda/Híjar was way more populated during muslim times and got heavily hit by the morisco expulsion in the XVII century, with whole villages being abandonded because their entire population was expelled. The muslim patch should go into Alcañiz (which is lots of time mentioned as a Christian foundation in older textbooks, althought it has been refuted in modern scholarship.
• Maybe we can get a muslim minority in Barbastro to cover Naval? The local muslim population was highly important economically (in ceramics and saltworks).

Economic:

• Iron in Jaca is wrong and unnecesary. There were some iron mines aroung southern Ribagorza (where wool is indicated). If you exchange wool and iron between Benabarre and Jaca you have the same gameplay but quite more historically realism (wool was a heavy economic activity in Jacetania for centuries).
• I guess lumber in Sariñena want to represent the Monegros, but there is a lot or urban legends regarding that. Lumber was produced actually more to the north (Ainsa for example) and shipped down in nabatas using the river Gallego. If you exchange trade goods between Ainsa and Sariñena you also improve realism regarding lumber.
• Doing the last swap would put coal in Sariñena. Which may have sense in game play but not geologically. There were however mines of coal in Mequinenza (under Fraga location in the map). So I would suggest having lumber in Ainsa, Dyes in Sariñena and Coal in Fraga (even though Dyes were not local in Aragon, as far as I know).
• Wine in Belchite is again weird. The vineyard there are in Cariñena, which was part of the Comunidad de Aldeas de Daroca. Belchite is in turn, more of a cereal area. It will be better to swap those two to.
• Spice in Zaragoza is a even more weird... Was it meant to represent regaliz? Zaragoza was known for its orchards so fruits may be more realistic. (I feel we lack a vegetables resource to model orchards). It may still be necesary for gameplay purposes to boost a bit Zaragoza.
• I would put wine in Barbastro (it is still a vineryard area) and remove wine from Tudela (which is another orchard area that could be given fruits or the more orchard resource)
• Zuera having lumber is unusuall since it is a more agricultural land. I would however prefer salt to represent Remolinos salt mines that were a major economic element for a couple of millenia.

I want to go to other parts of Spain after I have a coffee.

Great feedback, we'll go on detail over it!

 

[Pavía]

How come the locations in Catalonia are in Catalan but the locations in València are in Spanish?

Naming inconsistency, we'll review that.

 

[Pavía]

Ciudad Real was named Villa Real until 1420, after the town supported Juan II in a weird attempt of coup. It would be dope if the name changed in-game if the location sided with the winner of a civil war.

I love to see the Alamadén mine represented properly. Will it have the real production output? If I remember correctly, it amounted for a freaking 30% of mercury world production.

And I don't feel that the name of Cold Arid is correct. I would never say that the climate of La Mancha or Valencia is Cold Arid. Maybe use Arid Mediterranean?

1. True, fixing.
2. Yes, as much as 30% of the world's production before the 19th century.
3. There's more Cold Arid across the world, like in the Central Asian steppes.

 

[Pavía]

Woud it be possible that the Map of the Pops is paintet in a colour so you can directly see in which provinces there are more or less pops than somwhere else? It woud just be faster to just scan the Map for bright Colours and after that you can look the number up.

It is per country, but I'm taking the screenshot without any country selected.

 

[Pavía]

Does this mean that at game start Portugal and Castile will start at war?

It may also start in a truce; we haven't made a final decision about this.

 

[Pavía]

Will it be represented in some way the transhumancia (i dont know the translation) ,and if so,will there be a difference between the types of wool,since castile had 2 types of sheeps,churras (low quality wool) and merinas (good quality).

We will represent merino wool in a certain way.

 

[Pavía]

Cold Arid for the eastern mediterranean (Mallroca, Catalonia, Valencian Community etc) feels so wrong. Im from the Spanish levante and it certainly is not cold arid like central castile. Its very much mild warm mediterranean.

It's how the Köppen classification depicts it, although it may be counter-intuitive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-arid_climate

 

[Pavía]

Wait 133,000 inhabitants of Barcelona? That seems excessive no? I just googled and found a paper (Barcelona, a Society and its Law: 11th-13th Centuries; de Montagut, Tomàs; 2008) that says its population in the 1356 was 34,000 inhabitants.

I imagine this map would include population of the surrounding countryside, but that still is an incredible 100k difference. Am I missing something?
What makes the number so high? Provided this is the map at the start date of course.

It's not only the city of Barcelona, but also some other towns included in the location (Sant Cugat, Terrassa, Sabadell, etc.), and the countryside; we've tried to use population density as a base, the complement with town and city data where possible.

 

[Pavía]

Why do Cervera and Manresa have subtropical climates?

Cervera is 100% cold arid while Manresa should be Oceanic.

There's a micro-climate there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Spain#/media/File:Koppen-Geiger_Map_ESP_present.svg

Confirmed by the Catalan fellow who made it.

 

[Pavía]

Could we have a map mode that has the color effect without selecting a country? I remember other Paradox games also only have color gradients once you select a country but sometimes you want to see the population concentration regardless of country.

We got that initially, but it got completely messed up when we added the Chinese and Indian pops...

 

[Pavía]

That raises the question of why Iberian vassals are part of the country while French vassals have their own tags. Do the "vassals" of Castille and Portugal have that much less autonomy?

Speaking of Iberia, historically Granada lasted until a century and a half past the start date. I hope there are measures to stop Castille from splattering them 20 years into the game every time.

Yes, Iberian feudalism was different from French feudalism.