Tinto Maps #2 - 17th of May 2024 - Iberia

[Pavía]

I'm surprised on the positive. All maps show clearly that actual research was put into them and the geographical details makes the huge diversity in Iberia justice.
Here is my two cents of feedback for now:

Province map:
View attachment 1134554
Castile seems to have a disproportional superior density compared to every other kingdom around them (i'm surprised it wasn't Aragon, as it usually is), which is a bit strange considering how much bigger it already is, as well as how sparsely populated it's hinterlands have always been.
Keeping my additions short and only strictly necessary, i would add 3 more localities to Portugal (which as usual seems to have the lowest density of the bunch):

Braga - Absolutely fundamental, city of paramount importance in the region since the Roman period all the way to the present day, it was criminally absent in Eu4 and in a map of this detail it's simply unjustifiably absent.
Mirandela - A town with a very old history dating to pre-roman times, it became a walled city and local administrative centre by the mid 13th century. But mostly i chose it because the Chaves province looks horrid with that shape and needs to be split.
Covilhã - One of the largest, most significant cities in the late Medieval Period, a hub of culture and pioneered the Renaissance in Portugal, home of a surprisingly large amount of noteworthy Portuguese navigators and explorers and one of the greatest sources of revenue funding the early explorations (despite being so far from the coast)

View attachment 1134558
No comments. Once again Portugal has the least granularity, although to be perfectly reasonable, it does match correctly with their historical provinces at the 16th century.
I would just simply rename "Minho" to "Entre Douro e Minho" as it was called.
(I also included the split of Beira and Alentejo into two provinces each, purely to make them more appropriately sized in comparison to everywhere else, although i have no idea if this is a good idea in gameplay terms or if it matters at all.)

View attachment 1134555
Seems to be based on the Koppen-Geiger model, which has it's flaws such as considering Csb "mediterranean" when it's never actually found in the mediterranean and has far more characteristics in common with Oceanic climates, however it seems that the development teams was aware of this and actually included Csb as an Atlantic Oceanic, which i 100% agree with.
The changes i would make here are completely minor:
-I would push Cold Arid a little bit further north in North Iberia, the climate and landscape changes dramatically North and South of the Cantabrian mountains. Places like Palencia, Burgos, Logroño or Soria look and are substantially drier than their counterparts in Asturias, Cantabria and Biscay.
-I would push Atlantic Oceanic a little bit further inland in central Portugal to include the Estrela Mountain range. Like with the Cantabrian Range in Spain, in Portugal it's the Serra da Estrela Range that marks the starkest natural border between the Oceanic Northwest and the Mediterranean Southeast.
-I would stretch the Mediterranean climate a bit further south from Catalonia to coastal Valencia. It just feels weird for Valencia not to have a "Mediterranean" coastline, since it's almost the staple of what "Mediterranean coasts" are.

View attachment 1134583
On terrain, it seems fairly accurate, changes would be minor once again:
-Galicia should be more hilly and with a small plateau in Lugo
-The hills in the central Portuguese coastline seem odd and out of place, that coastline is exceptionally flat, that is until you get to the Lisbon peninsula, where the hills shield the city from the Ocean, and the province "Pontes Vedras" themselves were noteworthy for the strategic use of their rugged terrain for military fortifications in the latter period of the game (assuming it lasts until Napoleon) so, there's that.
-The Estrela Mountain range should be a mountain province, it's 2000m high, it dwarfs everything in the British Islands and i assume they are going to have at least a mountain province in Scotland or Wales.

View attachment 1134557
In the forest map i would add a couple changes based on maps of forest density, although this is admittedly unreliable, since modern maps don't necessarily correspond to the 14th century reality, although one would assume the 14th century was more forested than today, and so are my suggestions.
Most importantly here i would say it's the Andalucia area, it seems that there are a lot of woodlands in the Guadalquivir valley, yet that area is very dry, flat and almost devoid of vegetation, it seems that these woodlands are supposed to represent the Sierra Morena, which would be a little bit north of that area.


View attachment 1134556
Unlike in the previous suggestions, here i actually have no hard data to work with, such as 14th century census, so this is entirely guessing based on toponomy and architecture.
It seems like Castile has an almost unbelievable lack of Mudejar minorities in comparison with Portugal, Leon or Aragon, this is very strange as Islamic presence was absolutely massive in Andalucia, this is evident both in toponymy and mudejar architecture, which is by far the most significant in Andalucia and Murcia, and at this period Castile had just barely conquered those lands, with Huelva and Cartagena being conquered only a mere 60 or so years prior to this date. A far as i know there wasn't any mass scale purge or expulsion in Castile during 1270-1330 that would almost completely reverse over 500 years of Islamic domination. As far as i know most expulsions, in Castile, Aragon and Portugal alike began in the late 1490's, early 1500's.

Thanks for the detailed feedback! One comment: Indeed, there was a mass scale expulsion of the Andalusian mudéjares in 1266/67: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revuelta_mudéjar_de_1264-1266 . This is why there are more mudéjares to the north, as they didn't rebel and were far away from 'la Frontera', that in the south. We've used the data from the fiscal censuses of the 1290s (the only ones extant in the Crown of Castile for the 13th and 14th centuries, sadly) to recreate the remaining mudéjar populations.

 

[Pavía]

Well they were governing a place teorically in the name of the king (in some case they will just try to force being named such title in relation to their power in their region). Normally kingdoms. And more than once they ended confronted to the Crown, some of them being true powers by themselves.
So basically will be a title with some paralels to the Crown Colony in EU4 and would make the playthrough much more challenging regarding to a process of centraliszation as you would need someone governing the land with the risk of becoming unloyal and do not giving up its powers.
Those are fairly interesting reasons to consider such kind of vassal.

PS.: I think is not fair try to equalise a "Meiriño Mor" to an "Adiantado Mor" to make any point as they are quite different.

We're depicting those processes with other mechanics, such as the Control one. This case just doesn't fit under the landed vassal style.

PS: I was just trying to depict it in a simple way; in my thesis I specifically discuss the transition from the model of 'Merindandes Mayores' to that of 'Adelantamientos Mayores' during the reign of Alfonso X. And in Galicia, you could add on top of them another important royal official, the 'Pertiguero Mayor de Santiago'.

 

[Pavía]

Are the names of Catalonia's provinces definitive?

No, we're open to review.

 

[Pavía]

Love it but:

How did Cuenca made it to be Mediterranean climate while almost all Mediterranean coastline is Cold Arid? Very weird.

Also not loving the West-Sevilla East-Sevilla naming.

We might review that.

 

[Pavía]

BTW, to those of you asking about Azores, Madeira and Canary Islands, they will be shown in another Tinto Maps.

 

[Pavía]

Will we have some mechanics related to this?

Yes.

 

[Johan]

But if iberia has 9M in 1337, before the black death, will the game be able to simulate population growth until the 1800s realistic? The dates which game last, world population was around 1 billion. So can you say black death will kill half of population in europe? Or it will more easy for us to defeat plague

I'd say 40-60% from Black Death. There are many other diseases that kill of pops, famine and war is not exactly kind to population numbers either.

Luckily, humans tend to enjoy making babies, and pre 18th century adult women gave birth to 4-6 children on average. Even with a high rate of child birth, populations tend to rise over time with those numbers, even with the Four Horsemen paying semi-regular visits.

 

[Pavía]

Im curious about the state of Madeira, the Açores and the Canaries. Though they were only colonized in the early 1400s, I wonder if their colonization is lead by events somewhat railroading it or if it is possible either Iberian power can fully take them over before another does.
I ask this because securing all three sets of islands would basically guarantee dominance for one nation in the first few decades of the Colonial game if not nearly a century. If the player makes a committed economic and military effort in securing such a crucial early footstep they should be rewarded by mechanics for having the foresight to do so and making sacrifices for it.

There will be mechanics for this, it won't be event-driven.

 

[Pavía]

Magnificent maps! It’s only missing one detail for now, and it’s a location named “Falalalan” and with “Falalalera” culture somewhere in Navarran Pyrenees where the music that has tormented us by centuries was first sung.

Jokes aside, I have to say I cannot be happier for the enthusiasm put and the rigorous/accuracy that is being pursued in this Europa Uni... secret project and shown us in TT/TM. I have some feedback (mainly around La Rioja but also some in the rest of Iberia) from yesterday’s TM that I try to write it as tidy as possible to make things easier.

I am pleasantly surprised that Laguardia location (Rioja Alavesa) is being taken into account, I believe @Aldaron is from Bilbao and that might have something to do with it. And of course @Pavía and the rest of the team. Good job!

At the end of the post I leave some biography that I searched in case it helps.​

---

#1
Sierra de la Demanda Mountains between Calahorra and Ágreda locations and River Queiles.​

---

Val river and then Queiles river flow eastwards from Ágreda to Tarazona. The Sierra de la Demanda mountains in their most eastern side are between Calahorra and Ágreda, and produce a natural barrier between these two locations. My point here is just aesthetic, since I believe the connection of Calahorra and Ágreda locations should still exist but representing a bit more of the actual mountains. The Moncayo mountain wasteland should also increase it’s size.

View attachment 1134890
In green the increased wasteland size.

​

---

#2
Pass from Logroño location to Aranda de Duero and Lerma thought Sierra de la Demanda​

---

This is just positive feedback for what I think it’s an accurate representation of the pass from Logroño location to Aranda de Duero and Lerma locations though Najerilla river valley (Logroño -> Nájera -> Anguiano -> Viniegra -> Mansilla -> Villavelayo -> Canales de la Sierra) to the Castilian plateau. Although I would change that instead of Logroño-Aranda locations connection, it would be Logroño-Lerma connection because the connection is more direct and natural towards Lerma, and from there, then yes, to Aranda de Duero.

View attachment 1134891
I have colored Lerma a bit more to be the one location connected to Logroño, instead of Aranda.

​

---

#3
Climate, topography and vegetation of La Rioja and surroundings.​

---

Climate in Logroño, Laguardia and Calahorra locations is all perfect, since it is in the limit of oceanic and cold arid, but it’s more towards Burgos and Álava oceanic than to the arid Zaragoza continuation of the Ebro valley. It's a closed and upper part of the Ebro valley, so clouds and rain get stuck more than say Zaragoza, where it's more open arid climate.

Topography is all perfect too, since both Logroño/Laguardia and Calahorra locations are very flat territories of the Ebro valley and in between sierra de la Demanda to the South (Sistema Ibérico mountains) and sierra de Toloño to the North (Montes Vascos mountains) it fairly flat.

About vegetation, I believe Logroño and Laguardia should have woods. Right now it is all cultivated lands around Logroño, Laguardia, Nájera and Santo Domingo de la Calzada, but there are accounts that these flatlands had woods at a much greater density, probably as a prolongation of the vegetation from the mountains that surround these locations as seen in pictures [5], [6] and [7] that i leave at the end of the post.

Calahorra, is a more open valley (farther from mountains and lower) should be grasslands or sparse, not woods. In the biography I leave a link [2] to a map of the Ministerio de Transición Ecológica where there is the distribution of forests from 2008 date, and even taking into account this is a map from now, there were a lot less cultivated land around these Logroño and Laguardia locations and in consequently more forest mass. As said, Laguardia and Logroño should be woods from this source, as a big part of their locations are occupied by “frondosas” vegetation. The opposite for Calahorra, that lacks that coverage of "frondosas". I hope it can be useful for the rest of actual Spain (wish it included Portugal too). BTW farmlands in Tudela is very accurate due to its famous fertile land.

View attachment 1134893
Laguardia and Logroño as woods, and then Calahorra as grasslands.

​

---

#4
Culture distribution around La Rioja.​

---

It’s very accurate that there are Basque population in La Rioja in 1337. The majority of villages in Logroño location (Rioja Alta) have Basque toponym, and it is known that i.e. Nájera, Haro, Ezcaray… had great influence from Basque and Navarran nobles (Nájera even Kings, Kingdom of Nájera) so consequently Basque culture population presence in the game.

In fact, the first appearance of Spanish or “castellano” language is in the Monastery of San Millán, in Rioja Alta, in the form of annotations in Glosas Emilianenses [4], which also contains annotations in Basque along them.

By looking at the stripes I cannot compare density of Basque in Logroño location (Rioja Alta) and Calahorra location (Rioja Baja), but definitely Logroño had greater influence of Basque culture so it should have more of this population than Calahorra.

In the other hand, I would put Castilian stripes in Laguardia since it’s the same valley and Logroño and Laguardia are just a few kilometers away. There should be definitely some Castilian population in Laguardia by 1337 representing the mix of people around this border region.

View attachment 1134940
Some Castilians in Laguardia representing the mix of cultures around this part of the Ebro valley between Sierra de Toloño and Sierra de la Demanda.

​

---

#5
Trade goods distribution in La Rioja.​

---

I find accurate that wine production in Logroño and Laguardia locations is present. It is estimated that since Roman times this region cultivated wine for own consumption, until Fifteen Century when started to have surpluses and were sold to other markets, mainly Basque Country, since further away regions had their own production centers near. It’s also correct that there is wheat production in Calahorra because the climate there is slightly change, so wheat grows better than wine.

​

---

#6
Province belonging of Logroño and Calahorra locations.​

---

Historically, the term of La Rioja first appeared in the Eleventh Century to refer to the region that actually is Rioja Alta, which corresponds to Logroño location in the map. After some time, Rioja also ended being referred for Rioja Baja, which corresponds to Calahorra location in the map. The sources about province split between Burgos and Soria Provinces are correct for the Eighteen Century, but in reality the Ebro river and valley has a big impact and as Logroño (Rioja Alta) is mainly dependant to Burgos Province due to Castile, I would put also Calahorra to Burgos Province for a 1337 time and the rest of the game. They both are in general better connected to Burgos than to Soria, even from Calahorra, and its natural connections are along the Ebro valley to Rioja Alta and then Burgos. Moreover, taken into account wastelands added in feedback #1.

Other options are to include both locations (Logroño and Calahorra) into Navarra or make a new province named La Rioja having Logroño, Calahorra and Laguardia. Although, I think it’s more accurate to use the first option to make both part of Burgos, as shown here in this sketch.

View attachment 1134895
Calahorra location included in Burgos province together with Logroño location, instead of in Soria province.

​

---

#7
Name of the location of Logroño.​

---

The name (or capital, I don’t know exactly how locations work) of the location of Logroño should be Nájera, more important than the first by this time of 1337, as can be seen in the bibliography [1] in the map of page 89, of number of windmills by location, being Nájera win by a lot in number against Logroño, that only has three. Logroño is my born city, but to be realistic at 1337 Nájera had more relevance mainly because of the Kings of Navarra, until the end of Fifteen Century, by when Logroño being a walled city was unsuccessfully sieged by the French in 1521. Apart from this, any of the following two options could be ideal only if they fit and/or are going to be used in other parts of the world:​

• Name the location Nájera, and plan an event in the Fifteen Century that this location is renamed to Logroño. Could also work for many other locations in the world.​
• But even better this other option; name Logroño to Rioja Alta, Calahorra to Rioja Baja, and Laguardia to Rioja Alavesa.​

If either of the two options are too much, just leave it as Logroño, since in about 100 years and for the rest of the game Logroño will overthrow Nájera as the main city in this location.

View attachment 1134896
Rioja (or Rioga) term has its first references in Logroño location around eleventh century, 200 year prior to the game start.

​

---

#8
Wastelands in Iberia.​

---

I think that apart from the wastelands drawn around La Rioja in feedback #1, some of the other can be improved or even created new ones as I show in the following map compared to a physical map, and then explained by letters down below.

View attachment 1134897View attachment 1134898

​

​

a) Same as in feedback #1.​

​

​

​

View attachment 1134899​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

b) As seen in bibliography [8] Serra da Estrela is the highest mountain range in continental Portugal, and it’s a natural communication barrier between Coimbra/Viseu and Guarda/Fundão. I would create a new location out of Guarda named Fundão, a town that became important after the expulsion of Jews from Castile and Aragon Crowns. The created wasteland would make the connection between those locations different and disconnected from some. I leave a zoom in here.​

​

​

​

View attachment 1134900​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

c) As western Maestradgo is reflected (Sierra de Albarracín, the highest mount Pico Caimodorro,1936 m), it should be eastern Maestradgo (Sierra Turolense, the highest mount Pico de Peñarroya, 2028 m).​

​

​

​

View attachment 1134901​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

d) Also part of Maestradgo and Catalan pre-coastal range, there should be a wasteland in Tortosa that impossibilities connection between this location and Alcañiz.​

​

​

​

View attachment 1134902​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

e) This is just to improve and detail/granulate the Pyrenees, since right now I think they look too blocky. It’s just an operation to remove some part to resemble the real valleys than enter the wasteland, and improve a bit those valleys of Andorra, Vielha and Llívia.​

​

​

​

View attachment 1134903​

​

In red those parts to substack to resemble the valleys, and in green those to add to increase wasteland density inside the Pyrenees.


​

---

Here the referenced bibliography/links from above:
​

​

[1] A compilation about medieval history of La Rioja. García de Cortázar, José Ángel. "Estudios de Historia Medieval de La Rioja".​

​

[2] A forest map of Spain from data of 2008. It can help together with other sources the fores areas in Spain. I hope it included Portugal too.​

​

[3] Information about Basque derivation names of villages in La Rioja.​

​

[4] Glosas Emilianenses where first early attestations of both Proto-Spanish or Castilian and Basque.​

​

[5] Picture of actual Laguardia in the same game location, where you can see all the cultivated land, until the orography allows, when then there is a lot of woods and forest.​

​

[6] Picture of Labraza, very close to Laguardia where you can see all the cultivated land between woods, and the same as Laguardia until the orography allows, when then there is a lot of woods and forest.​

​

[7] Picture of Santo Domingo de la Calzada in Logroño game location, where you can see all the cultivated land, until the orography permits, when then there is a lot of woods and forest.​

​

[8] Serra da Estrela is the highest mountain range in continental Portugal and it’s a natural communication barrier between Coimbra/Viseu and Guarda/Fundão.


Very good job! Keep it up!​

Great and detailed feedback, thank you very much! Just one minor comment: by 1337, Logroño was already the most important town in La Rioja. I studied the towns of the region in my thesis (as they were part of the 'Merindad Mayor de Castilla'), and it had already surpassed Nájera as the main political and economic center in the 13th century.

 

[Pavía]

Amazing maps, I'm so looking forward to playing this game! Just a couple of questions and a few comments that I hope can help

Religions:

• Is religion an "either/or" thing? Meaning, the province is either religion A or religion B? Or is it population-dependent? Meaning, more than one religion can co-exist in a location, and the one with the most followers is the dominant religion?
• If it's the second, would the migration of pops between different locations impact your religion? It would be so much fun to see how different actions (like launching inquisitions, becoming a theocracy, building monasteries, etc) would affect religion distribution.
• Also, in that case, a percentage of pops in capital cities of Iberia would follow Judaism, as an estimated 400.000 Sephardic Jews lived in Iberia during the 14-5th centuries. The history of Medieval Castille and Aragon with religions other than Catholicism is not the prettiest, but would be interesting to have related events. For example, the 50.000 Jews conversion to Catholicism as a consequence of the "Massacre of 1391" (Joseph Perez, Breve historia de la Inquisición en España, 2012). or an event in 1492 (with the final acts of the Reconquista in the capitulation of the Nasrid Emirate of Granada, and with the Alhambra decree) that could offer the possibility of ordering the expulsion or conversion of "pagans" (Muslims and Jews).

Locations map:

• If the Catalan locations are based on the old "Catalan Counties", it may be more historically accurate to rename some of them. The names "Lleida", "Vic" and "Vilafranca del Penedès" are the cities or capitals of the regions. The region for "Lleida" would be "Urgell", for "Vic" would be "Osona", and for "Vilafrance del Penedès" it would be "Penedès". The name of "Manresa" stopped being used as a County in the 12th century, it may be more accurate for that region to be named "Cerdanya" instead.
• However, if the Catalan locations are based on the Vegueries map, it would be more accurate to replace "Talarn" (city) for "Pallars" (vegueria), "Manresa" for "Berguedà". As with the counties, "Vic" should probably be "Osona", are Vilafranca del Penedès and Lleida would be correctly named. I'd agree to divide Tarragona to include Montblanc!!
• It would be interesting to have some kind of event with the locations of Chinchilla and Villena, with the option of transferring Chinchilla to the Crown of Aragon as "Almansa" due to dynastic ties, and/or the culture of Villena changing to Portuguese. Why? In 1395 the area of Chinchilla was split from Villena and transferred as Almansa to the Crown of Aragon, within the Kingdom of Valencia. In 1996 Villena started receiving exiled Portuguese nobles (who had helped Enrique III against Juan I of Portugal) to the point that the local nobles were completely displaced (Aurelio Petrel Marín, "Entorno a la incorporación del Marquesado de Villena a la Corona de Castilla", page 79)

Terrain map:

• You could consider changing Vilafranca del Penedès from Flatlands to Hills, as Barcelona and Tarragona are separated by the Garraf Massif. a mountain range up to 660m high with cliffs that reach the Mediterranean waters (Mapa Cartogràfic de Catalunya, May 22, 2010)
• The Iberian Peninsula of the time was much densely covered in woods and forests compared to modern times. According to the article "Iberian Forests: Structure and Dynamics of the Main Forests in the Iberian Peninsula" (Pablo J. Hidalgo), originally 90% of the Iberian territory was covered in forests, and at present coverage is only 15%. Deforestation began in early medieval ages, so it shouldn't be 90% in this map, but definitely denser. I would suggest to slightly increase the woods coverage and slightly change some of the current wood areas to forests (specially in the northern regions like Galicia, Asturias and Basque Country).

Trade Map:

• The locations of Chinchilla and Villena maybe should be within the Barcelona Market, as in the 1300s these areas were exempt from paying customs tax to the Kingdom of Valencia to promote trade. The economy of Chinchilla relied more on the trade with Valencia than with Murcia/Seville (Aurelio Petrel Marín, "Entorno a la incorporación del Marquesado de Villena a la Corona de Castilla", page 79).
• I am SO HAPPY to see Salt in the area of Tarragona, as the nobles from Cardona were so rich due to the salt trade that they were known as the "kings without crown"
• I am not sure I understand "Fish" as the main trade good in Barcelona. While fish was an important part of the economy, Barcelona (unfortunately) was one of the main ports of slave trade in Europe. The slaves were mostly taken in military campaigns from the southern shores of the Mediterranean (The Middle Ages Series: Slavery in Medieval and Early Modern Iberia, Phillips Jr). However, if we considered that slaves were not "produced" in Barcelona, then the oldest and most reputed goods being manufactured in the area were weapons (high quality swords and knives), leather worked in the Arab technique and high-quality locally-manufactured textiles (Catalan Commerce in the late Middle Ages, Maria Teresa Ferrer). Note that the textile industry started to be the main engine of economic activity in Barcelona starting on the 1300s, and was consolidated in the late 1300s and early 1400s. Another item instead of fish could be Naval Supplies, according to the same article the manufacture of tallow and pitch were used in the naval industry and was one of the products constantly present in the 13th century exports of Barcelona.
• In the 14th Century, due to its climate the Kingdom of Valencia was an important producer of Oriental Spices (like cumin and anise seed) and sugar (Catalan Commerce in the late Middle Ages, Maria Teresa Ferrer), maybe one of the locations should represent this?

I hope this helps! You are doing such an amazing job with this game, I can't wait for release!!!

Religions:
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. There will be events related to the Sephardic minority.

Locations
1. We're basing the location naming on, well, locations.

Terrain
1. We know well el Massif del Garraf, as it's just around Sitges, where Paradox Tinto is located; I have to cross it everyday, as I don't live there. I understand what you mean, but given the level of detail (which is high, but not so much), Vilafranca del Penedès works much better as flatlands.
2. We might add some more vegetation here and there, we've identified some places where it's not as dense as it should be (e.g. modern Cantabria). But take into account that by the Late Middle Ages, much of the arable land had already been deforested.

Trade
1. We're not setting in the setup the locations in each market, only the market centers; the locations are then automatically and organically assigned, using the trade system calculations.
2. All the goods you suggest for Barcelona are manufactured, not raw materials.
3. We may take into account your suggestions for Valencia.

 

[Pavía]

Fair warning, I am no expert. If any wiser minds wish to correct me, I strongly encourage it.

View attachment 1134965

Here's my humble attempt. I split provinces that:

• Were too large compared to neighbors;
• Had an important place that should maybe appear in the map;
• Just looked nicer at a glance.

The red letters are existing locations, the numbers are new provinces. So here's the list as labeled in the map:

1. Braga: not much more explaining to do beyond what my fellow patriots have all reitirated, massively important city at the time.
2. Ermelo: I just wanted a location here to make the border look nicer, but it seems the Ermelo was granted foral way back when the kingdom declared its independence. I also has a smaller name than most of the alternatives.
3. Mirandela: Moncorvo was a bit too large, Mirandela fits nicely here and was granted foral in 1250, first fair in 1295.
4. Figueira da Foz: to break up Coimbra, but also an important port for both fishing and shipbuilding in the region at the mouth of the Mondego river, which was navigable during the game's timeframe.
5. Seia: important castle before the beggining of the game, but received multiple forais in the following centuries too.
6. Sabugal: another important castle, guarding the frontier against the beloved neighbors to the east.
7. Covilhã: as others have mentioned, extremely relevant during the time, many navigators and other figures hailed from here.
8. Óbidos/Alcobaça: Either of these would fit here, Óbidos a walled city (even nowadays!) and Alcobaça an important monastery with its clerical lands. I would vouch more strongly for Alcobaça though.
9. Sintra: important castle, foral in 1154, basically a playground for the elites to run away from the heat in Lisbon with multiple convents, estates and the such. Had a sephardite community at the time which might be worth representing.
10. Sertã: Crato was stretched too thinly, and Sertã was also certainly relevant enough at the time anyway, so it fits the bill.
11. Almeirim: splits up Santarém, but like Sintra was a playground for the elites in Lisbon (hunting and stuff), would even become the location of a royal palace until 1755's earthquake brings it down to rubble.
12. Serpa: splits up Beja, important castle at the frontier.
13. Mértola: splits up Ourique, was important even during muslim rule, in part thanks to its port in the Guadiana river.
14. Mogadouro: splits up Moncorvo further, important castle at the frontier, given to the Templars at first and then to the Ordem de Cristo.
15. Silves: Lagos was important, but so was Silves and its river port, especially during the age of discovery, even if its importance eventually waned with the centuries due to the silting of the Arade river which left Portimão as the main city in the area in modern times.

Some notes:

• The borders of the provinces straddling the Tagus could coincide with the river, since we all love too see that, but also helps make the province borders look a bit less jarring.
• Miranda do Douro, not Miranda de Douro.
• Lisboa, not Lisbon, as you've already pointed out were fixing.
• Viseu, Évora, maybe Viana do Castelo could maybe be split as well, but I'm not sure how.
• Chaves has a weird shape but I couldn't quite figure out how to change that. Porto too has a weird finger poking at Vila Real.
• I don't see the need for wastelands in the northern regions, the terrain might be rugged but aside from Serra da Estrela I don't really see an impassable zone anywhere to a degree that would justify it. I do agree that adding some mountain terrain is not out of question, though.
• As others have noted, giving Olivença its own location would be funny, if not for the meme alone.

Borders aside, I won't bother describing climate as you have your own sources for that, though the additional provinces might help in matching it better to climate maps.

I can try looking for goods, but most of these provinces will have some kind of agrarian activity which you probably will want to balance to your taste. Three thoughts though:

• Esgueira produces Olives, I'd vouch for Salt.
• Moncorvo does have considerable deposits of Iron, it is marked as Tin in the map, though you may have your reasons for this.
• Leiria is home to a monoculture of maritime pine which was initially used to protect against the coastline's advance, but would eventually become a big source of wood for the ships that let Portugal take to seaward expansion. I'd give it Lumber instead of Fish.

Also, I'd like to thank you for including Sado's and Tagus's estuaries in the physical map, as they are strangely absent in most Paradox titles. I don't even think they need their own sea zones (though I wouldn't mind it either), I just like to see them included.

This project truly looks like a labour of love, I can't congratulate you guys enough on the work you've put into this so far. If you any questions or doubts about what I wrote above, I'd be more than glad to help if I am able to.


Edit: As some have noted, indeed Olivença was the only major border change in Portugal's continental borders, and it should be included as a location.

Hello all, and congratulations to the devteam for what is shaping up to be every EU player's dream! Having been playing these masterpieces for 23 years (!!!), I can hardly wait for its release.
While mostly agreeing with the way the Iberian Peninsula, particularly Portugal, is being protrayed, I'd like to make a few suggestions regarding Locations (A), Climate (B), Topography (C), Vegetation (D) and Raw Goods (E)

A) Locations:
- there seems to be some inconsistency in the names of a few locs namely Esgueira, Castelo Branco, Chão de Couce and Pinhel. Esgueira might be better represented as Ílhavo, Santa Maria da Feira or, especially, Aveiro; though Aveiro only rose to prominence in the XV century, it seems odd getting stuck with Esgueira for 400 years. Castelo Branco was elevated to a town in the XVI century, while not being wrong per se as it was known before as Casto Leucum, it is not the most correct. Pinhel you may consider changing for Almeida, a vital border garrison. Chão de Couce could perhaps be changed to Figueiró, Ansião or Sertã (birthplace of Nun'Álvares Pereira).
- the fact that Alentejo, through its location of Crato, is extending North of the Tagus is "unholy" (Alentejo meaning beyond the Tagus). That geographical space should belong either to Beira or to Estremadura, Crato town itself is quite southwards of the in game represented location. The same can be said of the Guimarães panhandle (territory of Trás-os-Montes), Avis "snake" connecting Elvas border to the outskirts of Lisbon (with potential dire strategical consequences) and Moncorvo location that links Galiza with León (cutting off Bragança and Mirand do Douro). I suggest splitting Moncorvo, creating Mirandela or Torre de Moncorvo; Avis firmly in Alentejo with Coruche breaking off of it to the west, belonging to Estremadura. Guimarães must be split to allow Braga to be represented, one of the leading cities of the nation.
- between the locs of Chaves, Guimarães and Viana, the dense forest hills of Peneda-Gerês could be represented, maybe as Terras de Bouro
- Castelo Branco and Guarda locations are too large, consider adding a third loc in between them, along a northwest-southeast split, the southeastern part being flatter and drier, the northwestern part, wet forested hills, being in the foothills of the Montejunto-Estrela mountain range (western end of the Central System of the Iberian Peninsula).
- Coimbra can be landlocked by creating Figueira da Foz/Montemor as the orography changes drastically east and northeast of Coimbra (sharp imposing hills) to its west (a vast, wide and fertile plain along Mondego valley).
- as previously suggested Torres Vedras can give off in the south Cascais/Sintra, Leiria can give off Alcobaça to its south and Algarve could be split in four locations, adding Silves between Lagos and Faro.

B) Climate:
- the locations of Guarda and Northwestern Castelo Branco should be Oceanic, as per Serra da Estrela heights. Definitely not Mediterranean. Southeastern Castelo Branco is in the rain shadow of Serra da Estrela.

C) Topography:
- even though Coimbra's hinterlands could be described as hilly, as mentioned, to its west the terrain is flat and wide, therefore it is not accurate to represent it as hills. If the location can't be broken into Coimbra/Figueira, I'd suggest sticking to flatlands.
- Lisbon, Torres Vedras and the southern part of Leiria (Alcobaça) would probably be better represented as hills. West of Lisbon and South of Torres Vedras, the terrain rises sharply creating Serra de Sintra.
- the current loc of Castelo Branco could be described as a plateau, though its western part is quite hilly. Between Guarda and Castelo Branco it would be optimal to have a mountain loc, as previously stated.
- Esgueira/Aveiro/Ílhavo could be represented as marshy, as per Ria de Aveiro. Alcácer do Sal should definitely be marshy, as the low lying Sado valley was/is prone to stagnant waters.

D) Vegetation:
- it is not correct to represent the central locs of Beira as being grasslands.
- if any location in Portugal should have forest, especially in the in game ages, it wouldn't be Chão de Couce, but rather Guarda/Viseu (Montejunto-Estrela and Caramulo) and Northeastern Minho (Peneda-Gerês), corresponding to in game current locs of Viseu, Guarda and somewhere between Viana, Chaves and northern Guimarães. Serra de Sintra, west of Lisbon, could also be represented as forest.
- Lisbon, west Coimbra, Porto and the whole of Minho that isn't wooded/forested should be represented as farmland. If I'm not mistaken, the richest soils in Portugal (terra rossa) lie directly north of Lisbon, and farms (hortas) surrounded Lisbon until the late XIX century.

E) Raw Goods:
- Torres Vedras, wheat rather than olives. Zona Saloia supplying cereal to Lisbon.
- Santarém, flat farmland supplying wood? Much rather livestock, or cereal, definetely not much wood in Santarém. The same can be said for Porto, which could be better shown with medicaments or even fish.
- Coimbra could have medicaments, on account of harboring the country's general studies, a centre of learning since D. Afonso Henriques and the monks of Santa Cruz. D. Afonso Henriques himself was treated by the same monks after the disaster at Badajoz.
- Elvas loc could have stone as for the quarries of marble at Vila Viçosa, tho legumes is not wrong.
- Beja and Moura should be wheat all the way, wine was a minor production compared to the manpower devoted to cereal production in Alentejo. The same for Ourique.
- Avis (especially it's western part, campina do Tejo/Tagus and Sorraia flatlands) and Crato (coudelaria real de Alter do Chão/royal "horse center") could produce horses.
- Salt in Aveiro/Esgueira, if not, livestock (Marinhoa breed, they graze on the salty marshy soil south of Aveiro).
- Salt in Faro, fruits in Silves/interior of Algarve.
- Castelo Branco, especially it's southeastern part is olives all the way. I'd say livestock would be restricted to Penamcor area/northern part of Castelo Branco.
- Northern Minho (Viana) could have wine as main production (Vinho Verde).
- Serra da Estrela (Guarda/Castelo Branco/Viseu) and Gerês (Northern Guimarães/West Chaves) regions had (have, even if now much less) quite a few oak trees that would come in handy some one hundred years later...

My apologies for this huge "biblical" post, keep up with your amazing work!
Best wishes from old Aeminium

Very detailed posts, our CD Team will take a detailed look at them as well, thank you very much!

 

[Pavía]

First things first, so let me congratulate Project Caesar and @Pavía for Tinto Maps talks. They truly are important. As this shows my home region, I believe theres space to improvements in Portugal

This is my personal opinion, but comparing Castilla with Portugal we see a disparaty in locations and provinces, and its easy to understand what I'm saying: in castille most of the provinces are given to the most important city, and in that province there are locations. In Portugal you have areas and in that areas important cities. By saying these just compare the provinces number and sizes of Portugal and Castille. (And i believe that this is also one reason why Lisboa market doenst work: too few locations and goods). I see that you've used the medieval administrative division of the XIV century. But if that if that is the criterium than provices of Castilla should be only its ''kingdoms'': Galicia, Asturias, Vizcaya, Castilla, Leon, Toledo, Murcia, Jaen, Cordoba, Sevilla.


So my first sugestion is to split Alentejo, Beira and Extremadura provinces in: Portalegre, Évora, Beja, Setúbal, Lisboa, Ribatejo, Beira Interior, Beira Litoral



Locations sugestion for provinces:

Portalegre: Portalegre, Nisa, Castelo de Vide, Avis, Crato/Alter do Chão,Elvas.

Évora: Évora, Estremoz, Monsaraz, Montemor-o-Novo.

Beja: Beja, Moura, Serpa, Mértola, Ourique

Setúbal: Setúbal, Alcácer do Sal, Sines/Santiago do Cacém, Odemira.

Algarve: Aljezúr, Lagos, Silves, Faro, Tavira, Alcoutim

Ribatejo: Santarém, Abrantes, Tomar, Coruche

Lisboa: Lisboa, Cascais, Torres Vedras, Alcobaça, Leiria

Beira Litoral: Coimbra, Esgueira, Lamego, Viseu, Tondela/Besteiros

Beira Interior: Castelo Branco, Guarda, Covilhã, Pinhel/Riba Coa, Trancoso, Sabugal

(if needed i can try and do some maps on Paint)


Olivenza in my opinion is a location of Badajoz province that was in Portuguese Realm. It was a important city in Portugal until the very end. I say that it should be in the Badajoz province because its in the left side of the Guadiana river, and it was necessary to built a important bridge to connect the city with Elvas and the Realm. Although there are cities today on that side of the margin (Mourão, Moura, Serpa), they are further south, and Portugal never had a complete control of the margin because it lacked control of Alconchel


With this said, I'd also split Badajoz location in Badajoz and Alburquerque (occuppied by the portuguese for nearly 100 if i recall, even improving the fort/castillo de Luna) and Jerez de los Caballeros in Jerez and Alconchel


Raw goods (will put some sources):
Portalegre - Wool
Nisa - Clay/Livestock
Castelo de Vide -Livestock
Avis – Wheat
Crato/Alter do Chão: Horses (https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coudelaria_de_Alter) Yes, the foundation was only in 1748. So you could also replace with livestock
Elvas - Wheat
Évora -Wheat
Estremoz – Marble (Anticlinal de Estremoz – (http://home.dgeo.uevora.pt/~lopes/Artigos/artigo06.pdf) - One of the most important places in the World for marble production
Monsaraz – Wine/Wheat
Montemor-o-Novo – Olives/Livestock
Beja - Wheat
Moura – Olives/Wheat
Serpa – Livestock/Wheat
Mértola – copper (https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mina_de_São_Domingos) There are others mines in the region, former mines and new mines
Ourique- Wheat/Livestock
Setúbal - Fish
Alcácer do Sal – Salt (https://atlas.cimal.pt/drupal/?q=pt-pt/node/152)
Sines/Santiago do Cacém - Sand
Odemira – Iron
Aljezúr - Fish
Lagos - Fish
Silves - Fruits
Faro Fish
Tavira - Salt (https://cm-castromarim.pt/site/conteudo/salinicultura-de-castro-marim)
Alcoutim – Tin (https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parque_Mineiro_da_Cova_dos_Mouros)
Santarém - Legumes
Abrantes - Lumber
Tomar - Fiber crops
Coruche – Horses (https://www.cavalosorraia.pt/a-raca)
Lisboa - Fish
Cascais - Fish
Torres Vedras - Fruits
Alcobaça - Fruits
Leiria - Sand
Coimbra - Rice
Esgueira - Salt (https://salinasaveiro.com/passado/)
Lamego - Wine
Viseu – Lumber?
Tondela/Besteiros - Lumber
Castelo Branco – Fiber crops
Guarda - Wool
Covilhã - wool
Pinhel/Riba Coa - Livestock
Trancoso - Wine
Sabugal – Fruits


Regarding vegetagion:

Alentejo, Beira Baixa and Spanish Extremadura have a special and unique ecossystem: Montado/Dehesa. This is a agrosilvapasturil manmade landscape. Sparse trees, mostly Quercus spp, that produce acorns, cork, lumber, and permits the use of the soil for grains production, livestock creation, wine, fruits, legumes production, olives. Sparse with some Woods also, because in the hills its not that sparse, (https://montadodesobroecortica.pt/o-montado/o-territorio/) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehesa)
A map of distribution in Portugal: https://www.researchgate.net/figure...lentejo-region-Source-COS-2015_fig3_338108420
Portugal is a very treed country. Grassland in Beira region e far from true. It should be Woods and Forest mostly:

https://www.reddit.com/r/portugal/comments/l3ly3y

Regarding terrain:

https://www.reddit.com/r/portugal/comments/2ygm0l

With this map what I want to show is 2 things: Covilhã should be moutains terrain and the terrain away from the coastline is very hilly. Its always up and down. True flatlands are not common.

So my sugestions:
Portalegre: Portalegre, Nisa, Castelo de Vide,- Hills; Avis, Crato/Alter do Chão,Elvas-Flatlands
Évora: Évora, Montemor-o-Novo, Monsaraz – Flatlands: Estremoz-Hills
Beja: Beja, Moura, Serpa: Flatlands; Mértola, Ourique-Hills
Setúbal: Setúbal, Alcácer do Sal, Sines/Santiago do Cacém- Flatlands Odemira: Hills
Algarve: Aljezúr, Silves, Alcoutim – Hills; Lagos, Faro- Flatlands; Tavira-Marsh
Ribatejo: Coruche: Farmlands; Santarém, Abrantes, Tomar: Hills
Lisboa: Lisboa, Cascais, Torres Vedras, Alcobaça: Hills; Leiria:Flatlands
Beira Litoral: Coimbra-Farmlands; Esgueira-Marsh, Lamego, Viseu, Tondela/Besteiros: Hills
Beira Interior: Castelo Branco-Flatlands; Covilhã: Mountains; , Pinhel/Riba Coa, Guarda: Plateau; Trancoso, Sabugal: Hills

Olivenza and Alburquerque: Flatlands

I'm not looking into Minho and Trás os Montes because above Douro I really cant tell much

Hope that this will help

Another great post, thanks!

 

[Pavía]

What's your source for the Muslim/Andalusi/Morisco population in the different territories of the Iberian peninsula?

I've personally only studied it for the Crown of Aragon. During the famous expulsions of the 17th century, 3566 Moriscos were expelled from Catalonia, 60,818 from Aragon, and 117,465 from Valencia. This is supposed to be the consequence of a historically large Morisco population in Valencia and low in Catalonia.

The best data is for the former Kingdom of Valencia, thanks to the work of Vicent Baydal or Enric Guignet who also studied the emigration of Christians to the territory after the conquest. It had roughly a 30% of Muslims, and they lived mostly in rural areas of the west, and also around Benidorm. Some people already showed you great maps about them.

Aragon had a noticeable, but smaller Sarracen population, and here's my first surprise, why are they all in the north? Wasn't Teruel the "Mudejar capital" because of its high Muslim population and influence in the 14th century?

The very high Muslim population in Catalonia is what shocked me the most. I cannot find any source showing such a large and widespread Muslim population all across the western half of Catalonia. Granted, almost all sources I find are for the 15th, 16th or even the early 17th century (Henry Lapeyre, Joan Reglà, Jordi Nadal...), but all estimates are below the 2%. According to the 1496 (a tax for households, which has been used to calculate the population), the only Muslims in Catalonia were 788 families (estimated at around 3000 people in total) who lived in a few villages around Tortosa and Lleida.

This would be an "approximate suggested correction" (yellow Catalan Catholics, Green for Sarracens). I also think the Basque presence in Jacetania was much sronger, there are several researches suggesting so (like Vicente Latiegui)
View attachment 1135443

IIRC, I think the base work we used was 'Las comunidades mudéjares de la Corona de Aragón en el siglo XV: la población', by Mª Teresa Ferrer Mallol, and from there, we used the different fiscal sources available for the Crown of Aragon (which, TBH, is great, and much, much better than the extanct data for the Crown of Castile). One that I specifically remember using was some works and sources for the Kingdom of Valencia that started from de 'Llibre del Repartiment'; initially, there were far more Muslims in L'Horta de Valencia, but there was a slow process by which they were slow 'relocated' by Christian lords and peasants that bought these very productive lands, so they had to resettle in the less productive and populated lands inside the Kingdom.

 

[Pavía]

What about Mozarabs? As far as I remember, they were still around in this period, but I can't see them represented here.

Mozarabs (Christians in Muslim territories) technically should appear only in Granada and the benimarin beachhead, as the only areas left under muslim control. However, after Alfonso I "The Battler" campaign around Granada en 1126 several thousand mozarabs from the area came North with him. That Mozarab collaboration with the attacker made the Almoravids deport to Fez most of those who remained in the surroundings of Granada (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsión_de_los_mozárabes_en_1126), so I doubt they should be really significant by 1337. Maybe Malaga or Almería had surviving mozarabs communities, but I'd argue that Granada proper didn't.

We could do a wider interpretation and consider Mozarabs too as a minority withing the Christian kingdoms (representing southern christian population already living in some areas prior to its conquest by northern Christian polities). They actually were at first a socially distinct group, thus several towns in Aragon had both an "old" church and a "new" church. There were also literary references to "Mozararb neighboorhoods". But that was in the XII century and they seem to have been quickly assimilated (at least that seem the main thesis of the academcs writing about the XIII century demographics I have read). By 1337 I don't expect them to longer being relevant in the north.

Mozarabs are long gone as a minority, by this point. After the Almoravid and Almohad invasions, very few Christians remained in al-Andalus, and the religious division was clearly settled after the Mudéjar Rebellion of 1264. On the other side, although in some places as Toledo, the Mozarabs were a majority of the population by the team of the Christian conquest (there were separate 'fueros' for the Mozarab and Frank communities of the city during the 12th century), by 1337 there weren't religious or legal divisions anymore.

 

[Pavía]

It's taken me a while but, as promised @Pavía, some feedback on the aragonese/navarrese bits of the map. First and foremost, I'm sorely missing both Borja and Monzón. Monzón, even if it wasn't officially a "city", it was relevant and the place where the "cortes" of the three kingdoms used to meet. Borja, because in the XIVth and XVth century it was one of the biggest cities in the whole kingdom. Around 1400, the biggest cities would be (ordered by population) Zaragoza, Alcañiz, Calatayud, Huesca, Daroca , Huesca, Borja, Teruel, Fraga, Ejea and Barbastro.

I know placing Borja and Tarazona in the map wouldn't be easy, as they are really close to each other, but you've done the trick in the Low Countries.

Very please to see though that you went for Benabarre and not Graus, which only became more important in the XIXth century... but I'd consider naming that location as "Ribagorza". And potentially the same with Aínsa, making it "Sobrarbe". I think it was @Zaragoza that gave some really good feedback on the trade goods and shape of all those provinces, I fully agree with him.

About the cultures map: a majority of basques in Southern Navarra? The language there was actually navarro-aragonese! I'd say that at least Tudela and Olite should be a majority of... that: navarro-aragonese, if you're going with the name of languages for the different cultures.

But now, my main thing here:

View attachment 1135790

This is so wrong in so many ways. I was trying to find here at home a book I'm pretty sure my mother still owns about late medieval Aragón to help with the figures (counted by fireplaces, as it was the norm back then), and I'll keep looking, but for now: Zaragoza should be at least four times bigger than Calatayud and Alcañiz, and double the size of Tudela. And I don't mean increasing the population of Zaragoza (maybe just a little bit, but not really much): the rest of locations should have way LESS population.

The only source I've found online mentions 1495, which I know, very different, but Zaragoza had nearly 4,000 fireplaces while Calatayud barely had 1,000 and Alcañiz around 750. I know you need to take into account not just the main locations but other relevant places not shown in the map... but the difference was staggering. The population in Aragon has always been concentrated around Zaragoza and the map does not reflect that.

Hi Tommassi! So:

1. About the locations, Monzón will most likely be added, while Borja might be a bit more difficult, we'll see. About Ribagorza and Sobrarbe, you're right that it's the name of the 'shire', but we went for names of specific places when possible for location; therefore, why we used Benabarre and Aínsa instead.
2. Yes, we might tweak the pops of La Ribera, it's something that I noticed when preparing the DD, and that we're aware of.
3. about the pop numbers, we've used a mix of density plus some additions to calculate it, but it's true that Zaragoza could be adjusted to be a bit more outstanding compared to the other Aragonese locations.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Pavía]

Hi! Just wanted to let you know that we've gone through the feedback in this thread, and I've posted the review in this new one: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/tinto-maps-2-iberia-feedback.1687279/#post-29689036

 

[Pavía]

Can we get a Dynasty Map for Iberia now? I know its visible on the main Characters TT but Id like a zoomed in one

Sure, this is the current status:

I'll write a longer post in the other thread, with other variants and possibilities.

 

[Pavía]

Heyyy! Great work!

I want to mention that if you plan on drawing a France situation with lots of vassals and non integrated-late feudal bodies, you should try to transmit it also into Iberia. I'd like to mention 2 example from the Crown of Aragon, than I know a little better. One is the county of Pallars Sobirà (literally High Pallars), which remained a feudal vassal of the crown until a revolt that lead to its integration in 1487. The second one is the county of Empúries, which was in a similar situation until 1401, when its count died without heirs, allowing the king Martí l'Humà to integrate the county into the crown lands in 1402.

In essence, the XIV and XV centuries are very intense in the race for integration, defeudalization and revolt in Aragon and Catalonia (The Catalan Civil War took place between 1462 and 1472) and it's a great oportunity for adding flavour and playing with the base mecanichs of game around those conflicts and period. Having there Andorra and not these other counties is a bit of an anachronistic cherry picking.

Hope it helps!!

Hi! We don't really think that the political situation of France would be akin to that of the Iberian kingdoms, as the feudal system worked on a different way. This is why we have portrayed the latter as more unitary kingdoms (on the surface), and the former much more divided. Thanks for your comment, in any case!