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Tinto Talks #12 - 15th of May

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, where we delve into the details of the most top-secret project ever made.

This week we talk about something that is rather new to our GSG, and that is the concept of international organizations. Now this may sound like an anachronistic term, and when you read further in this Tinto Talks, you’ll go “but you already have this in previous games”. Yes, we did have some hard-coded systems in previous games, like the Holy Roman Empire, but what we have here in Project Caesar is a completely dynamic system, 100% scriptable and extendable for modders, which allows for many of these, and with far more flavor.

What is an international organization? Well, at its heart is a group of countries that share some common things, and then quite a few attributes that can be defined for them. The instruction file right now is 140 lines long, and it will keep growing.

Some examples of things that an IO can have are the following.
  • If it has a leader or not, and if the leader is a character or a country.
  • If it's unique or there can be multiples of it.
  • If locations can be owned by it or not.
  • Member benefits or penalties.
  • Laws and Policies it can have.
  • Special statuses inside the organization
  • How members will behave during wars
  • And dozens more unique attributes.
Membership in some of these can take a diplomatic relations slot.

As we continue our development of this game, we keep adding more of these, adding more unique flavor to the game.

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We have “control-groups” like every PDS game has had since EU1, and Stellaris added icons for quick selects… The one for Project Caesar can be pretty much anything in the game, and if you start as a member of an organization, you get a control group for it from the start.

Common Organizations
Let's take a look at some of the generic ones, some of these have been hard-coded systems in previous GSGs, and these are not unique organizations in a campaign, but can exist in multiple instances.
Coalitions
These can be created, with a country as a target, when the target has an aggressive expansion beyond a certain threshold.
Unions
This is a sort of defensive alliance between countries that share the same ruler. They may or may not have different levels of integration.

There are a few others like this, including defensive leagues and tribal federations.


Religious Organizations

Catholic Church
Every country in the world that is part of the Catholic faith is a part of this organization. They have issues that the cardinals vote on, and being a member has implications and restrictions. Of course, this has the added benefit of having Catholic pops in Catholic countries paying a tithe to the Church, which eventually finds its way into the Papacy.

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One reason to go Lutheran?

Crusades & Jihads
These are temporary international organizations that will be created when a Crusade or Jihad is called. They have a target set and act like an alliance against that country.

Autocephalous Patriarchates
Meaning self-headed, an Autocephalous Patriarchate is a metropolitan bishop in the Eastern Christian confessions which acts independently and does not depend on or answer to any other hierarchically superior church authority. The different patriarchates then have their own synods of bishops to decide upon anything affecting their own religious jurisdiction.


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WiP grahics etc.

There are many of these, for Orthodox, Miaphysite, and other Eastern Christian confessions.

There are many more, some other religions have a central organization, and others have fragmented ones.


Specific Organization
There are also a fair amount of completely unique and flavorful organizations.

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What's this then?

Tatar Yoke
The Tatar Yoke consists of various principalities of Eastern Europe that are subject to Tatar Rule following their invasion in the 13th century. The most prominent of rulers is awarded the title of Grand Prince, and is tasked with collecting tribute from the other tributaries on behalf of the Golden Horde Khan.

Middle Kingdom
The Middle Kingdom is the meaning of China and has been considered the cultural center of East Asia since Antiquity.

This organization is led by the Huángdì, the Emperor of China, who has a number of Fēng Chén, akin to vassals or tributaries, that can be promoted to Celestial Governors, equivalent to the Secretariats that the Yuán dynasty used in the administrative organization of their empire. Its members have a unique societal value, Sinicized vs Unsinicized, and there’s a Tribute system that determines how much Celestial Authority the Huángdì gets, which is used to enforce Laws and Decrees.

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The Tribute system is a system where the Huángdì sends gold to the other nations in the Middle Kingdom, depending on their size.

Holy Roman Empire
The glory of the ancient Roman Empire lives in the memory of all in Europe, Charlemagne was crowned Roman Emperor, but it was not until the coronation of Otto the Great that the current Holy Roman Empire was born, once again recovering the ambitions of a revived and unified European Empire.

This organization, of course led by an Emperor, has different statuses for countries like secular and religious electors, secular princes, free cities, and imperial prelates. It has laws that impact the organization and its members, the most important at the early game being the Golden Bull, which is a must to get approved in order to further develop the institutions of the Empire.

There are others in the game at the moment, like the Shogunate, the High Kingship of Ireland, and many more, as the system is very flexible to use.

Next week we will talk about what Religions we have in the game.
 
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Can nations create a Coalition Organization against a nation that has too much power to maintain the balance of power without having any aggressive expansion requirements?
 
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Off topic, but in a prev dev diary they said you can't raise levies until you're at war or fighting rebels. But isn't this super easy for players to exploit? Just dec on some small nation next to you, easily crush them, but don't peace out. Then, dec on a worthier foe and rush them down with your already-amassed troops while they are struggling to raise their levees. Seems super cheese-y and like it will be difficult to balance in MP. Thoughts?
 
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The Genoese traders controlled Kilia, but it's not particularly likely they controlled much outside of that. It's worth noting that the Byzantines also had a port in the same area at the time: Vicina. I think both are probably best represented through some building in the location owned by the Byzantines and the Genoese, rather than entirely carved-out locations.

It's also worth noting that in... 1321, if I recall, the Golden Horde gave Bulgaria control of Bessarabia up to the Dniester, but then rescinded that control in 1330, at some point occupying Vicina somewhere in the year range of 1332 to 1337.

I think, therefore, that Bessarabia should be under Golden Horde control in 1337. See my post here for sources.
So we give Bessarabia (Budjak) to the golden horde, the same should be done with central Moldova, but leaving out the mountainous western areas, the Tigheci Hills and Shipinskaya land.
 
So we give Bessarabia (Budjak) to the golden horde, the same should be done with central Moldova, but leaving out the mountainous western areas, the Tigheci Hills and Shipinskaya land.
Yeah, and then as the Golden Horde pulls away from its western frontier and control dips in the region, Wallachia can move in and take the territory along the Danube while Hungary fights the Golden Horde.
 
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Is French Crown with all of its appanages an organisation? Can you create something like HRE out of it (more decentralized)?
If French Crown and its appanages aren't not an organisation, then I assume the English Crown is the same. But how do you model the Hundred Years' War without International Organisation? I thought there will be an English Side and French side and can flopped between two side like the Religious Leagues in EU4.
 
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Looks great, but I am struggling to really enjoy it fearing that the Muzaka issue will not be fixed. Can you at least answer me whether you'll fix the issue or not? Please?
I think changes to Albania will have to wait until the map talk on the Balkans.

That's going to be quite a busy map talk.
 
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Modders can make their own easily.

A player has to play with the ones in the game.
This is great to hear. One of my first thoughts regarding this system is that too much dynamism and malleabilly can be... a mess.

A question regarding Coalitions:
Does the new system mean that they won't always just be one giant coalition?
For example:
You are the Ottomans and you start expanding very aggressively into both Europe and the Middle East. So let's say Austria starts a coalition and other Europeans that are mad at you join while at the same time the Mameluks or Persia start their own coalition
 
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Just on the tribute system in China, Yuan is the "payer" and the tributaries are its "payees" (change this word to recipients maybe?) -- how does this benefit Yuan? İ thought tribute would be demanded from the subjects, not offered to them..
China's historical "tributary" system was much closer to a trade or exchange system that often saw China exporting more goods as "gifts" than they recieved in "tribute"

This was intentional policy which brought a wide variety of benefits for the empire and the imperial seat
 
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Only countries are playable entities
Some examples of things that an IO can have are the following.
  • If it has a leader or not, and if the leader is a character or a country.

And what's the relationship between characters and countries? Will most countries have leaders that are characters? And will we hear more about characters soon?

Really hoping for something better than EU IV PU mechanics. Doesn't need ck3 style characters to re-create a world of personal monarchy/ realtionship beyond materialism and for better role play.
 
Hopefully these organizations can be renamed by the player.

The Holy Roman Empire was given its name formally only by early 1500s. Since it's name has changed and evolved over the centuries, I'm hoping players will get the same opportunity.
 
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This seems like a very good way to formulate lots of different historical relationships/groupings, my only gripe is that a lot of the time you are left with only the areas that historically had these such as China or the HRE being interesting to play, so areas like West Africa or the Balkans inevitably end up with fewer meaningful gameplay options. It would be nice if there was some in-game way to create "generic" IOs perhaps customisable based on government type, how many allies/vassals you have, culture etc. - that way there are more options for progressing your country than just "blob as much as possible (maybe with some vassals)"

Alternatively I guess could just aim to have these IOs spread around the world as generously as possible, but personally I like the idea of giving the player some agency so that based on the way a campaign has progressed this system can be utilised accordingly. Ofc such a system would probably need serious balancing and restrictions on it, but I think could lead to much more engaging emergent gameplay like the creation of economic/technological/military pacts, or even stronger ties like making a confederacy.
 
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