Tinto Talks #12 - 15th of May

[ResEuropea]

land ownership for HRE is different from country membership

Love this! I can already see on the map that not all locations within an entity seem to be part of the HRE - as was indeed the case. Could this open the door to swearing fealty to different overlords for different locations?

 

[Kr4mpus]

That was an occupation by a hostile conqueror!

So Sweden will be an inferior party through a status of (partial)integration or other means as opposed to an equal party in the Kalmar union?
Don't mind the flag

 

[aantia]

I'm looking forward to the unions dev diary. I really wonder how unions with one clearly superior partner will work. E.g. when James VI & I gained the English throne he immediately packed his bags and moved south, and that certainly had long-term ramifications.
I'm also curious about how the Tudors are going to come to power if Wales is a sovereign nation.

 

[Markusw7]

unrelated but imo provices should be flexible and have some sort of system similar to the de jure system in CK3 where if a tag owns some but not all locations in a province then either the province that those locations are a part of should get smaller or they should become a part of the surrounding provinces.

This is under the assumption that there are bonuses from owning all of the locations within a province but it allows players to change the map to benefit them. this obviously wouldnt be as poweful as it is in CK3 as there are no internal vassals as there are in CK3 that could change the borders of provinces you already own all of, and this shouldnt be a thing regardless since it just makes a mess inside your country and offers no real benefit.

locations should also remember which province they were a part of originally and if a tag owns that location and its original provice then it should drift back to its original setup, this could also be a game rule so players can choose if they want any locational drift changes made to provinces to be permanent.

As locations can be taken independently of provinces is there even any value in this?

 

[Nordez]

Does this mean it'll finally be possible to form the confederation of the Rhine as France? Or some other systems that helped France control it's empire like the continental system. I've always been sad the closest you can get in eu4 is to create a large subject but the real confederation wasn't a truly unitarian state or anything like that.
(Never mind saw you got to that already)

 

[Antimonum]

I saw a mistake in the Autocephalus Patriarchs, namely the patriarch of Sofia.
The historical seat of the orthodox Patriarchate of the second Bulgarian empire is Tarnovo from the break of the catholic unia by Ivan Asen II in 1235 until Tarnovo fell to the Ottomans in 1393.
When the Ottomans besieged Tarnovo it was actually the Tarnovo Patriarch Evtimii charged to organize defenses, since the Tsar already left for the Danube port fortress of Nikopol.
Also Tarnovo was the Capital of the second Bulgarian empire - not Sofia.

 

[Lindaegan]

Minor nitpick, but should the Champa be referred to by "duchy"? It seems a rather European term, and most English-language sources I have read refer to it as a kingdom. Now, if being a "kingdom" comes with additional gameplay benefits that the polity did not necessarily deserve at the time I can understand hesitancy to call it that, but perhaps it could merely be referred to "Champa" (as it is in the Khmer texts) with the "duchy" level not being shown?

Most Sanskrit names for the polity use the words नगर (nágara) or पुर (pura), both of which mean "city," "town," or "locality," or connote "urban" in some sense. As a result I do not really agree with the "duchy" moniker, since that much it was certainly not - they were not really seen as "below" a "king" - which is not a formal title the same way it was in Europe.

 

[AntarcticRanger]

I love a dev that is so deeply involved in the community, this is an awesome experience.
Anyways, how will excommunications work?
Also, Catholics and the various eastern churches (man I really hope for unique Christians in southern india) have there own organizations, are there Protestant organizations? Is it possible for, say, Anglican and Presbyterian organizations to overlap?
This week was the best yet and I'm already so excited for next week.

 

[starchitect]

Thats not a bad name.

"The Catholic Church is an association"

What about an “Allegiance” as a name for IOs? It seems a bit more flavorful for the time since it evokes things like loyalty and oaths. It works for non subject relations too, since a trade organization for example has an allegiance to the higher power of profits, and allegiance to the church or crown is self explanatory.

 

[Guillaume Henri Dufour]

Question!
On the map you can see that the Swiss cantons will now be individually playable. Will the Swiss Confederation be represented as an international organization?

 

[MasterPaw]

Off topic, but in a prev dev diary they said you can't raise levies until you're at war or fighting rebels. But isn't this super easy for players to exploit? Just dec on some small nation next to you, easily crush them, but don't peace out. Then, dec on a worthier foe and rush them down with your already-amassed troops while they are struggling to raise their levees. Seems super cheese-y and like it will be difficult to balance in MP. Thoughts?

Just disallow declaring war if levies ste raised

Same as in other games

 

[Álvaro Núñez de Lara]

Papal States now that the actual Papal State tag gets all the mony from the Tithe like in CK sounds VERY attractive. I just hope it has unique mechanics so you just dont use all that money on blobbing and is more realistic, as the Church you should have massive international expenses too, financing missionaries, inquisitions, schools, bribing local churches, local rulers, helping churches in specific countries, financing the fight against protestantism... Otherwise the Papal States will be broken and stright up the wealthiest country of the game on release

 

[SafS.99]

However, I think it should work the following way..

An alliance between France and Ulm should cost MORE for Ulm than France.

What if Diplomatic expense is based on comparative size? The larger a nation is compared to you, the more diplomatic expense it costs and vice versa.
For example we have a pool of 100 diplomatic capacity, as France an alliance with Ulm only costs 5 diplo, while for Ulm to maintain french alliance it costs 50 diplo, while an equal ally costs 20.
The same could apply to vassals, the larger they are the more capacity they require. We could have 10 small vassals for 10 diplo each or 5 larger vassals for 20.

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

They are defensive alliances at BEST in Project Caesar.

Shouldn’t it be possible to centralize to a fairly high degree? Philip the Prudent took a position that what was his was his, regardless of the Spain vs Portugal distinction. It is that represented by turning a union into a country, like with the UK?

 

[Stein14]

I have the feeling that Johan is desperate to prove that Imperator Rome's flop was a one-off. And to prove it, it wants to produce the best GSG in the world.

 

[J_Master]

First: I stopped pre-ordering games a long time ago, for all the usual reasons. I may pre-order this game.

Sure, call me a buzzkill but I think people should be discouraged from pre-ordering games. This is still a highly controlled enviroment in which we're seeing the game, and the best informed consumer decisions are made once reviews drop that aren't under influence of some kind of embargo and continous good relations with the studio's that release games. Especially with games usually as expansive as PDX games, you can afford to wait a extra week.

I think the most shaky part of all of these is the term "nation", as nation-states weren't really the norm back then, or weren't seen as such if they were one.

However for now i also don't have any idea what to call them instead.

I personally take a much bigger problem with a anachronistic Dutch-Flemish division. Something including "state" or a acronym for it (since nation isn't one) would be a good one, but then again we're also looking at the era of continued feudal hierarchies which means that the HRE isn't such a entity untill at least 1648

 

[Keksburg]

Middle Kingdom

I know that it’s an academic term. I just feel that things like “celestial system/order” might be kinda cooler.

Huángdì

Personally I dislike such localization. The pronunciation of Old Chinese is quite different with the modern, but… Considering that it’s English localization, whatever.

Tribute system

To be honest, I do not think that the amount of payment as tributary played an important role in history. It’s more like a way that minors introduced themselves to the Celestial Emperor, which was more of a ritual thing. But emperors of Ming did provide protection and moderation to them, out of the motivation of the peace in borders. It hurts for a Chinese emperor to prepare for some wars.

And, well, Secretariats are administrative divisions of Yuan (the predecessor of Ming’s, Qing’s and modern administrative divisions). So, well, they are members of the IO, so will the Chinese empire would exist not as one big color, but in the Vicky2 way?
That’s cool honestly, as long as it could realize such two things:
- Central heart versus locals - an important contradiction
- Inland states compared to outer vassals - the former one is ruled by the appointed officers while the later one is ruled by hereditary princes.
When it comes to the details of east Asia, I may write a thread about this. You have done great works on abandoning orientalist. I like the names for Korea very much btw - it’s not “Korea” at all the times finally!


And, or should I say but, please do review this:

Fēng Chén

This word is referred to the European feudal vassals VERY specifically. For Chinese feudalism or something like that, please consider Zhū Hóu.

 

[Emir of Bengal]

Will the Caliphate (If it is ever added) also be an international organization? Or will it be a name change only?

 

[Torecto]

Love the map. Are vassals under a normal kingdom part of this "International Organization"?

BTW I think this name could use a little work. Makes me think of the United Nations. Not sure what would be better "Superstate Groups" or something like that might work

I'd say Supranational Groups

 

[MasterPaw]

With how versatile international organisation are

Why not make it a broader Diplomatic Treaty, that would include Alliance,Garantee, Subjects for example as well with the IO mechanic? (Performace and ai?)

From my point of view, it's unclear why some relations would be IO or subjects.

What are the differences?