• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Talks #12 - 15th of May

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, where we delve into the details of the most top-secret project ever made.

This week we talk about something that is rather new to our GSG, and that is the concept of international organizations. Now this may sound like an anachronistic term, and when you read further in this Tinto Talks, you’ll go “but you already have this in previous games”. Yes, we did have some hard-coded systems in previous games, like the Holy Roman Empire, but what we have here in Project Caesar is a completely dynamic system, 100% scriptable and extendable for modders, which allows for many of these, and with far more flavor.

What is an international organization? Well, at its heart is a group of countries that share some common things, and then quite a few attributes that can be defined for them. The instruction file right now is 140 lines long, and it will keep growing.

Some examples of things that an IO can have are the following.
  • If it has a leader or not, and if the leader is a character or a country.
  • If it's unique or there can be multiples of it.
  • If locations can be owned by it or not.
  • Member benefits or penalties.
  • Laws and Policies it can have.
  • Special statuses inside the organization
  • How members will behave during wars
  • And dozens more unique attributes.
Membership in some of these can take a diplomatic relations slot.

As we continue our development of this game, we keep adding more of these, adding more unique flavor to the game.

RZigoFT8pivs4RbsNFtBQGqaQMSB-NwC6Id9CgapPNKmxBGCqYjPrTK3TOWV2gHhSMNqWN8LmoatGHIChBBCxeV3T8wpOebRQqaXQ__zGeVTv6RXBXjvW0wVDL1ts4gwf3uw94JpH6PvJ8Jp54kpSwk

We have “control-groups” like every PDS game has had since EU1, and Stellaris added icons for quick selects… The one for Project Caesar can be pretty much anything in the game, and if you start as a member of an organization, you get a control group for it from the start.

Common Organizations
Let's take a look at some of the generic ones, some of these have been hard-coded systems in previous GSGs, and these are not unique organizations in a campaign, but can exist in multiple instances.
Coalitions
These can be created, with a country as a target, when the target has an aggressive expansion beyond a certain threshold.
Unions
This is a sort of defensive alliance between countries that share the same ruler. They may or may not have different levels of integration.

There are a few others like this, including defensive leagues and tribal federations.


Religious Organizations

Catholic Church
Every country in the world that is part of the Catholic faith is a part of this organization. They have issues that the cardinals vote on, and being a member has implications and restrictions. Of course, this has the added benefit of having Catholic pops in Catholic countries paying a tithe to the Church, which eventually finds its way into the Papacy.

K0EjskNKOL2OwVz04x2t5xOVyCmK0mzk8t8XeFwsSIy7rESL-CEGq8qG65XNw_FfRE5PKstXyKTtGOQFNveRFg5t-vcmzLLha4Kp9pkmODaOrvxKaq-IGqvmttz1uov0oP0XcPyUE2ZsLgjGOw3VvZM

One reason to go Lutheran?

Crusades & Jihads
These are temporary international organizations that will be created when a Crusade or Jihad is called. They have a target set and act like an alliance against that country.

Autocephalous Patriarchates
Meaning self-headed, an Autocephalous Patriarchate is a metropolitan bishop in the Eastern Christian confessions which acts independently and does not depend on or answer to any other hierarchically superior church authority. The different patriarchates then have their own synods of bishops to decide upon anything affecting their own religious jurisdiction.


kEMRia14Xe6l1V_1Y5CLGGuDbeIUGNi4SB5_wOBGkh0mTxM5Rcth9favURImtVsKOJcfpIA2a-MeoviF3s9vpQ4RKDRKhKUFaW0M18b5dbuMC09H4egQ2b3PX90r4he4fb19L4y4BYYgt7kK0va7TpA

WiP grahics etc.

There are many of these, for Orthodox, Miaphysite, and other Eastern Christian confessions.

There are many more, some other religions have a central organization, and others have fragmented ones.


Specific Organization
There are also a fair amount of completely unique and flavorful organizations.

4mf0wMwbK1PDnyD7thtnFC0Ls_LSxfxIFgj23kgR_C8dV4ZP8Zjt6KYKvj2HYU-7Ly8VfcPe_pX-bllJuV_4TM9I3soioW4WjLiF7Lg5Yt4ck9py5qUSgygF7eN7B2VCqK0PEdpUTnQUKg9ywFWgcp0

What's this then?

Tatar Yoke
The Tatar Yoke consists of various principalities of Eastern Europe that are subject to Tatar Rule following their invasion in the 13th century. The most prominent of rulers is awarded the title of Grand Prince, and is tasked with collecting tribute from the other tributaries on behalf of the Golden Horde Khan.

Middle Kingdom
The Middle Kingdom is the meaning of China and has been considered the cultural center of East Asia since Antiquity.

This organization is led by the Huángdì, the Emperor of China, who has a number of Fēng Chén, akin to vassals or tributaries, that can be promoted to Celestial Governors, equivalent to the Secretariats that the Yuán dynasty used in the administrative organization of their empire. Its members have a unique societal value, Sinicized vs Unsinicized, and there’s a Tribute system that determines how much Celestial Authority the Huángdì gets, which is used to enforce Laws and Decrees.

4ezK_ZgMOatMwil2PRhpl4s_ooVQwO_5N9yk9iOa2Rkm3vCaDjiSOz7PFIbTZg6wsKbsePwO8qnJpY9cJBV74_0MSrK_Nl_p4yUIrgh42-76Y0o7k8VWDhoSgHy0HxTnpZ-xZR9BUtd1FQ-LKfv9kL4

The Tribute system is a system where the Huángdì sends gold to the other nations in the Middle Kingdom, depending on their size.

Holy Roman Empire
The glory of the ancient Roman Empire lives in the memory of all in Europe, Charlemagne was crowned Roman Emperor, but it was not until the coronation of Otto the Great that the current Holy Roman Empire was born, once again recovering the ambitions of a revived and unified European Empire.

This organization, of course led by an Emperor, has different statuses for countries like secular and religious electors, secular princes, free cities, and imperial prelates. It has laws that impact the organization and its members, the most important at the early game being the Golden Bull, which is a must to get approved in order to further develop the institutions of the Empire.

There are others in the game at the moment, like the Shogunate, the High Kingship of Ireland, and many more, as the system is very flexible to use.

Next week we will talk about what Religions we have in the game.
 
  • 482Love
  • 179Like
  • 12
  • 12
  • 1Haha
Reactions:
I have the feeling that Johan is desperate to prove that Imperator Rome's flop was a one-off. And to prove it, it wants to produce the best GSG in the world.
The thing is, every recent Paradox strategy release has been a flop… Paradox surely knows this has to be a win. I just don’t know if they can actually do it. I’m not trying to be unfair to them though as EU4 is currently a very good game — will be hard to top that.
 
With a map as big as it is in this game, it is good that not all alliances work the same.

There should be a way to prevent wars being 20 vs 20 every time. It would become a siege marathon.

Alliances can range from country specific defensive alliance: X will help you against Y (Y being a threat in the region). With the option of the alliance including others but not everyone (this is where diplomatic capacity plays a role).

Then there is the general defensive alliance which should be more expensive to maintain.

Then the more expensive purpose based alliance (allies but only to attack X country).

Then the general all purpose alliance, being a full commitment alliance should be very expensive to have in terms of diplomatic capacity. It shouldn’t be common as many alliances throughout the game’s timeframe were for specific purposes. This should prevent Spain being allied to Austria, England, Burgundy, Hungary, and Russia at the same time.

@Johan
 
  • 5Like
Reactions:
Its called "Coalition"
Coalition is reaction on aggressive expansion. Some countries in the Holy League was pretty far from any Ottoman conquest and still joined it to protect Christian Brothers. And in EU4 I never saw effective coalition form agains Ottomans, they just manage AE and countries pretend that there is no Turks at the gates of Vienna.
 
Last edited:
  • 3Like
Reactions:
If it costs 1 slot or 6.5 capacity doesn't matter in the end.. its a simple change, and we are not sure which one we want atm.

"It doesn't matter" only if all diplo relations take the same capacity. Having capacity rather than slots allows for varying the weight of partners : a Union with Bohemia might not be the same as one with Cleves.

An idea : Having required capacity diminish as time goes by, and spike when things go wrong. For example, a 100 year old vassal is more integrated and generally has smoother interactions with his overlord than a brand new one. And if suddenly that vassal is rebellious, one could imagine the overlord needing to send emissaries, diplomats, arrange goods transfers etc. which would use a lot of diplomatic capacity.

This might not be as fun though so your call - having to compute "If I divorce X and marry Y I can free up enough capacity that I can break this Union with Z to vassalize W" might be a bit much.


As a side note, what is the convention for commenting on these posts? Do I have to read all previous comments to make sure I'm not repeating someone's idea?
 
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:
I am aware that the HRE as we know it later on didn't exist yet in 1337 but I do want to add some stuff I would be really excited about if it would be included.

I. The ability of countries outside the HRE to take over imperial estates and have a vote in the Reichstag. Effectively these estates would function as a personal union.

II. Reichstag issues being dynamic meaning that they react to events happening currently. If for example a imperial estate is going rogue it should be possible to call for a reichstag, which leads me to:

III. The emperor being able to call for a reichstag in a city of choice if there is not yet a perpetual diet. There can always be hard coded events like hanseatic decline in EU4 but it would be cool if there were some standard issues for the emperor to call a reichstag for. For example if Prussia annexes an imperial estate unlawfully the emperor should be able to call a reichstag to call for:

IV. A reichsacht or imperial ban on the offending party. This could be extended to reichsexecutionkrieg.

V. The emperor should be able to call for a reichskrieg in the diet. If it is passed all members will declare war on the target.

VI. Existence of a reichsarmee where member states contribute to in times of a reichskrieg.

VII. Extensive election mechenic. Instead of having an imeadiate heir upon the death of the previous emperor there should be some more time in which the electors conveine. In general it should also be possible to bribe, with territory money or positions or whatever, the electors to vote for you.

VIII. Existence of imperial positions like vicars, archchancellors, reichsmarshal (being commander of the reichsarmee during war) etc. which can be offered as bribe by the emperor aswell.

These are just some off the top of my head which would make the HRE so much more interesting to play in and feel more alive.

Also on a side note, will the Dutch Republic be an International Organization?
 
Last edited:
  • 8Like
Reactions:
I've been thinking, with the fact that PU's will work with the IO system, does that mean that we can recreate the irl thingy where brandenburg a subject of the emperor and an elector was "in pu" with prussia, a polish subject? or this sort of two overlord stuff still is impossible?
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Minor nitpick, but should the Champa be referred to by "duchy"? It seems a rather European term, and most English-language sources I have read refer to it as a kingdom. Now, if being a "kingdom" comes with additional gameplay benefits that the polity did not necessarily deserve at the time I can understand hesitancy to call it that, but perhaps it could merely be referred to "Champa" (as it is in the Khmer texts) with the "duchy" level not being shown?

Most Sanskrit names for the polity use the words नगर (nágara) or पुर (pura), both of which mean "city," "town," or "locality," or connote "urban" in some sense. As a result I do not really agree with the "duchy" moniker, since that much it was certainly not - they were not really seen as "below" a "king" - which is not a formal title the same way it was in Europe.
Am I crazy? Where are you seeing champa in the dev diary?
 
  • 2
Reactions: