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Tinto Talks #12 - 15th of May

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, where we delve into the details of the most top-secret project ever made.

This week we talk about something that is rather new to our GSG, and that is the concept of international organizations. Now this may sound like an anachronistic term, and when you read further in this Tinto Talks, you’ll go “but you already have this in previous games”. Yes, we did have some hard-coded systems in previous games, like the Holy Roman Empire, but what we have here in Project Caesar is a completely dynamic system, 100% scriptable and extendable for modders, which allows for many of these, and with far more flavor.

What is an international organization? Well, at its heart is a group of countries that share some common things, and then quite a few attributes that can be defined for them. The instruction file right now is 140 lines long, and it will keep growing.

Some examples of things that an IO can have are the following.
  • If it has a leader or not, and if the leader is a character or a country.
  • If it's unique or there can be multiples of it.
  • If locations can be owned by it or not.
  • Member benefits or penalties.
  • Laws and Policies it can have.
  • Special statuses inside the organization
  • How members will behave during wars
  • And dozens more unique attributes.
Membership in some of these can take a diplomatic relations slot.

As we continue our development of this game, we keep adding more of these, adding more unique flavor to the game.

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We have “control-groups” like every PDS game has had since EU1, and Stellaris added icons for quick selects… The one for Project Caesar can be pretty much anything in the game, and if you start as a member of an organization, you get a control group for it from the start.

Common Organizations
Let's take a look at some of the generic ones, some of these have been hard-coded systems in previous GSGs, and these are not unique organizations in a campaign, but can exist in multiple instances.
Coalitions
These can be created, with a country as a target, when the target has an aggressive expansion beyond a certain threshold.
Unions
This is a sort of defensive alliance between countries that share the same ruler. They may or may not have different levels of integration.

There are a few others like this, including defensive leagues and tribal federations.


Religious Organizations

Catholic Church
Every country in the world that is part of the Catholic faith is a part of this organization. They have issues that the cardinals vote on, and being a member has implications and restrictions. Of course, this has the added benefit of having Catholic pops in Catholic countries paying a tithe to the Church, which eventually finds its way into the Papacy.

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One reason to go Lutheran?

Crusades & Jihads
These are temporary international organizations that will be created when a Crusade or Jihad is called. They have a target set and act like an alliance against that country.

Autocephalous Patriarchates
Meaning self-headed, an Autocephalous Patriarchate is a metropolitan bishop in the Eastern Christian confessions which acts independently and does not depend on or answer to any other hierarchically superior church authority. The different patriarchates then have their own synods of bishops to decide upon anything affecting their own religious jurisdiction.


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WiP grahics etc.

There are many of these, for Orthodox, Miaphysite, and other Eastern Christian confessions.

There are many more, some other religions have a central organization, and others have fragmented ones.


Specific Organization
There are also a fair amount of completely unique and flavorful organizations.

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What's this then?

Tatar Yoke
The Tatar Yoke consists of various principalities of Eastern Europe that are subject to Tatar Rule following their invasion in the 13th century. The most prominent of rulers is awarded the title of Grand Prince, and is tasked with collecting tribute from the other tributaries on behalf of the Golden Horde Khan.

Middle Kingdom
The Middle Kingdom is the meaning of China and has been considered the cultural center of East Asia since Antiquity.

This organization is led by the Huángdì, the Emperor of China, who has a number of Fēng Chén, akin to vassals or tributaries, that can be promoted to Celestial Governors, equivalent to the Secretariats that the Yuán dynasty used in the administrative organization of their empire. Its members have a unique societal value, Sinicized vs Unsinicized, and there’s a Tribute system that determines how much Celestial Authority the Huángdì gets, which is used to enforce Laws and Decrees.

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The Tribute system is a system where the Huángdì sends gold to the other nations in the Middle Kingdom, depending on their size.

Holy Roman Empire
The glory of the ancient Roman Empire lives in the memory of all in Europe, Charlemagne was crowned Roman Emperor, but it was not until the coronation of Otto the Great that the current Holy Roman Empire was born, once again recovering the ambitions of a revived and unified European Empire.

This organization, of course led by an Emperor, has different statuses for countries like secular and religious electors, secular princes, free cities, and imperial prelates. It has laws that impact the organization and its members, the most important at the early game being the Golden Bull, which is a must to get approved in order to further develop the institutions of the Empire.

There are others in the game at the moment, like the Shogunate, the High Kingship of Ireland, and many more, as the system is very flexible to use.

Next week we will talk about what Religions we have in the game.
 
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They get their celestial authority by showing how much money they can waste on their tributaries.
If one day, you would no longer use the Roman or Persian tributary way to design Chinese tributary system, I would call it Tinto’s another revolutionary step.

In EUIV, tributary contains ducats, manpower and monarchy points - a great income for the overlord - but almost completely nonsense. They are GIFTS, they were exchanging gifts. Celestial emperor provides moderation and protection to the minors, and the peace between minors provides stability to the border of China. Malacca once annexed one of its neighbors, and Ming blocked its commerces and trade for like several decades. Generally speaking, gifts do not hurt, because it’s nothing other than some ritual things.

So what was actually giving celestial emperors real tributes? The local administration divisions. They provide ducats and manpower when there’s a need of war, and luxuries for royal use in peace times. And for some specific needs, some trade would be considered as tributes too - e.g. referring to Ming-Tibetan tributary of tea and horses.
 
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Look at the HRE maps (x)

Look that how many IOs we would have at the same time, let alone the pops! Our fate is now at the hand of dear Intel now…
 
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I am really ecstatic to see my small town in this, however Faenza in 1337 was indipendent and ruled by the Italian signoria dei Manfredi, until 1501 when it was conquered by the Pope.
 
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yeah, we have been trying to figure out a better name for this for the last 2.5 years we've had the system.
Diplomatic Network/System or Foreign Network/System might be an alternative, as in - 'All catholic countries are a part of the Catholic Church diplomatic system/foreign network', or, country 'XYZ is a part of the Catholic Church and Holy Roman diplomatic networks/foreign systems'.
 
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What determines whether or not a country gets a dynamic name? Like Bohemia isn’t called the kingdom of Bohemia yet the nearby Hungary is called fully the kingdom of Hungary. Is this just a matter of WIP or are there specific requirements for a country to have a title? (I would personally like all countries to have their full title, although I understand this may be annoying when you have smaller states).
 
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Largely German Bishoprics of Ermland and Kulm have Polish names and Duchy of Cieszyn is the only Silesian duchy named in Czech (or maybe German?). I don't think it's necessarily a mistake, but how do you decide the names when there's no English exonym or an obvious dominant culture? Dynamic country names seem like a terrible UX idea, so one language has to be chosen somehow.
 
What determines whether or not a country gets a dynamic name? Like Bohemia isn’t called the kingdom of Bohemia yet the nearby Hungary is called fully the kingdom of Hungary. Is this just a matter of WIP or are there specific requirements for a country to have a title? (I would personally like all countries to have their full title, although I understand this may be annoying when you have smaller states).
I think the requirement is "the name can fully fit over the country's borders and still be readable".
 
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Architecture like "units" existing in "locations" and belonging to "countries" is hardcoded, but almost all gamelogic is 100% scripted.. including MUCH of the diplomacy
does this include price ranges? in victoria 3 they cant go above 90%ish if you try to set the range above 0.99 then it will break and not have a price
 
I know this is a nitpick because this is still a work in progress, but the seat of the Bulgarian patriarchate was Turnovo, so it would be nice if that could be corrected for the final game, but I understand it's a small issue
 
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Hello, great job as usual ! First time commenting here on the forum.

I think I spotted a small error on the HRE Map regarding a misplaced location (I'm not an expert so don't take what I'm saying as granted).

If Neu means Neuchâtel, then Neu should be near the lake which got its name from the city.

Keep up the good work !

Best regards from Neuchâtel.

Neuchâtel capture.PNG
 
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I know this is a nitpick because this is still a work in progress, but the seat of the Bulgarian patriarchate was Turnovo, so it would be nice if that could be corrected for the final game, but I understand it's a small issue
There's that, there's a completely absent Archbishopric of Ohrid (it had autocephaly, too), and Serbia doesn't even have autocephaly (you don't need your archbishop to be a patriarch to have autocephaly!). To say nothing of border issues and all the rest of it.

I feel bad for the map team for that TT.
 
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the Golden Bull, which is a must to get approved in order to further develop the institutions of the Empire.
I'm sorry what? In what way would taking one of the most foundational steps in the fracturing of the HRE be required to "develop its institutions". Ratifying of the Golden Bull would be the exact opposite of something an emperor trying to reform the Empire in their favor would have to accomplish. If anything preventing it from happening should be a major goal for the Emperor in the early game. I was hopeful about a start date this early making the empire more malleable and interesting to develop but the decision to railroad the progression like this would be a major missed opportunity.
 
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Diplomatic Network/System or Foreign Network/System might be an alternative, as in - 'All catholic countries are a part of the Catholic Church diplomatic system/foreign network', or, country 'XYZ is a part of the Catholic Church and Holy Roman diplomatic networks/foreign systems'.
Why does it need something?
Why not 'All catholic countries are a part of the Catholic Church' and 'XYZ is a part of the Catholic Church and Holy Roman Empire'
 
Why does it need something?
Why not 'All catholic countries are a part of the Catholic Church' and 'XYZ is a part of the Catholic Church and Holy Roman Empire'
Because somewhere the game is gonna need a generic tooltip explaining all these things alongside coalitions and unions and the like, and it has to call them something.
 
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