There is an actual town in the US called French Lick. The nuances of the English language.
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A good reminder that even though most of the really malicious petty idiot nobles that got England into this mess are dead or banished, the remaining ones are not that much better.
Although the guy waltzing into the Tower of London, insulting the Queen, the Princess and the King of England, threatening the middle ones kid, openly speaking of dealing with the arch nemesis of all of them, and then expecting to walk put again takes the cake.
I'm fairly sure had he tried that in real life, he'd have been killed. Relying on Henry Tudor's absurd OTL character shields to save him TTL probably isn't a great idea either.
Although the guy waltzing into the Tower of London, insulting the Queen, the Princess and the King of England, threatening the middle ones kid, openly speaking of dealing with the arch nemesis of all of them, and then expecting to walk put again takes the cake.
I'm fairly sure had he tried that in real life, he'd have been killed. Relying on Henry Tudor's absurd OTL character shields to save him TTL probably isn't a great idea either.
The Queen's gained a couple stone, has she?
You just had to go there, didn't you.
I think Cecily enjoys being Queen, though I think it's time she demonstrated to William just how Queenly she can be.
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Are there any foreign powers backing this invasion of Jasper Tudor's?
What English nobles could be convinced to defect to the Tudor side (besides Black William)?
What English nobles could be convinced to defect to the Tudor side (besides Black William)?
Hold the beer.
From wiki, otherwise known as the bane of academia, the dread of teachers and professors, the lifebuoy of students who try to avoid writing source: my ar§e yet causing them epic fail;
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All right... I'd quite lost track of this backwater of the timeline, and gotten lost in a morass of Henrys and Margarets. By snatching at some vague memories of previous scenes and doing some quick wikipediaeing I think I put it all together.
So this Margaret with Queen Cecily is not her daughter (does she have a daughter named Margaret? I know she has Alice, yes?) -- this is Lady Margaret Tudor. And so the boy is who, in OTL, would become Henry VII. And they both, I assume, are existing within the York/Black William households as hostages.
So Black William (reasonably) thought to place the hostage in a safer location, since he'd soon be having to deal with the boy's father in his own lands? I'm a little surprised he didn't hang onto him as an ace in the hole if he decided to switch sides again.
I enjoy the ongoing misstepping and confusion with regard to who is the Queen. Cecily, obviously, is NOT!.
I'm curious what Jasper might hope to gain. Or, more to point of fact, what he might actually gain, regardless of what he thinks or hopes. It seems badly timed, or perhaps just desperate.
Looking forward to more!
Rensslaer
So this Margaret with Queen Cecily is not her daughter (does she have a daughter named Margaret? I know she has Alice, yes?) -- this is Lady Margaret Tudor. And so the boy is who, in OTL, would become Henry VII. And they both, I assume, are existing within the York/Black William households as hostages.
So Black William (reasonably) thought to place the hostage in a safer location, since he'd soon be having to deal with the boy's father in his own lands? I'm a little surprised he didn't hang onto him as an ace in the hole if he decided to switch sides again.
I enjoy the ongoing misstepping and confusion with regard to who is the Queen. Cecily, obviously, is NOT!.
I'm curious what Jasper might hope to gain. Or, more to point of fact, what he might actually gain, regardless of what he thinks or hopes. It seems badly timed, or perhaps just desperate.
Looking forward to more!
Rensslaer
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Fb-fb:
As to foreign powers, likely not many. However, never underestimate rumors.
Richard and Cecily have six living children after Edward died. In order of birth - Anne (married to Duke of Exeter), Edmund, Elizabeth (married to Duke of Suffolk), Margaret (married to King Henri of Champagne), George and Richard
The Margaret in this scene is Margaret Beaufort, daughter of the first Duke of Somerset (John Beaufort who died very early in the story), wife to Edmund Tudor (with whom she had a child named Henry Tudor) and now married to Sir Henry Stafford. Margaret is a Lady in waiting to the Queen. Henry was given as ward to Black William, now Earl of Pembroke, after Richard took the throne. All of this has been related throughout the story but it has gotten long so perhaps easily forgotten.
Jasper Tudor is Henry Tudor's uncle (not father) and hates Black William for killing his brother (Henry Tudor's father.) Margaret also has a crush on Jasper Tudor.
Finally, the rumor is that Jasper is invading perhaps timed to happen when Margaret of Anjou and King Henry landed with Henry Beaufort (the now dead and most recent Somerset.) We know that this will not happen, but those in England may not at this moment.
Indeed a lot to remember.
Black William likes to think he is bold, but he may not be as smart as he might believe he is.
I guess I was thinking more of her full finery (heavy dress, jewelry, etc) but indeed, she may have put on a bit of weight.The Queen's gained a couple stone, has she?
Cecily does indeed enjoy being Queen. However she must be careful as she is not officially the regent while Richard is gone.
As Cecily suggested, it would be very odd for Black William to join with Jasper Tudor (or perhaps more the reverse) since William is considered the killer of Edmund Tudor. Even got his old title after Richard won the throne.
As to foreign powers, likely not many. However, never underestimate rumors.
It is especially prevalent her in the south.
It is bound to happen with so many people named the same thing, so here is a refresher:All right... I'd quite lost track of this backwater of the timeline, and gotten lost in a morass of Henrys and Margarets. By snatching at some vague memories of previous scenes and doing some quick wikipediaeing I think I put it all together.
So this Margaret with Queen Cecily is not her daughter (does she have a daughter named Margaret? I know she has Alice, yes?) -- this is Lady Margaret Tudor. And so the boy is who, in OTL, would become Henry VII. And they both, I assume, are existing within the York/Black William households as hostages.
So Black William (reasonably) thought to place the hostage in a safer location, since he'd soon be having to deal with the boy's father in his own lands? I'm a little surprised he didn't hang onto him as an ace in the hole if he decided to switch sides again.
I enjoy the ongoing misstepping and confusion with regard to who is the Queen. Cecily, obviously, is NOT!.
I'm curious what Jasper might hope to gain. Or, more to point of fact, what he might actually gain, regardless of what he thinks or hopes. It seems badly timed, or perhaps just desperate.
Looking forward to more!
Rensslaer
Richard and Cecily have six living children after Edward died. In order of birth - Anne (married to Duke of Exeter), Edmund, Elizabeth (married to Duke of Suffolk), Margaret (married to King Henri of Champagne), George and Richard
The Margaret in this scene is Margaret Beaufort, daughter of the first Duke of Somerset (John Beaufort who died very early in the story), wife to Edmund Tudor (with whom she had a child named Henry Tudor) and now married to Sir Henry Stafford. Margaret is a Lady in waiting to the Queen. Henry was given as ward to Black William, now Earl of Pembroke, after Richard took the throne. All of this has been related throughout the story but it has gotten long so perhaps easily forgotten.
Jasper Tudor is Henry Tudor's uncle (not father) and hates Black William for killing his brother (Henry Tudor's father.) Margaret also has a crush on Jasper Tudor.
Finally, the rumor is that Jasper is invading perhaps timed to happen when Margaret of Anjou and King Henry landed with Henry Beaufort (the now dead and most recent Somerset.) We know that this will not happen, but those in England may not at this moment.
Indeed a lot to remember.
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A young Tudor in the Tower? I suppose with Margaret B in the York camp the Malmsey wine barrel will be kept in storage for now! Why did Margaret seem to want Pembroke to hang on to him - wouldn’t she want him back under her care? Or did I misread the interchange?
For all Black William's faults, and indeed over-confidence, he is at least aware that the threats from 'The Whore' is not over while she still lives and that Henry Tudor is also a potential problem. He cocked up that meeting certainly, but his underlying analysis is far more correct that snickering Wenlock. As for Cecily, I'd like to think she is playing down threats just to wind up Black William and not give him the satisfaction (or any money) but I can't be sure. The loss of her eldest son should have knocked any complacency out of her, but has it?
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Fb-fb:
I think Margaret B. was more shocked (and angry) that Black William could not care for her son properly. Ultimately, however, she may be happier since Cecily took him back. The Queen giveth and may also taketh away.
It may strain credulity, but Black William is no longer dealing with total incompetents now with Richard and Cecily. He expected to be able to take advantage (as usual) and was rudely awakened. That said, I believe you picked up on the behavior of Cecily. She may be more capable than Margaret of Anjou, but she may share some of the same hubris. I'm not sure I'd call it complacency, but certainly overly assured.
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Hedgley Moor, June 1464
It was an early morning light that lit the damp and foggy moor as the Earl of Warwick exited the farm house near Perry’s Cross. The air was thick and he struggled to see the rider approach. Waving his arm, Humphrey Stafford, the new Earl of Devon finally stopped before him and said from his mount, “Yon Prince would have word, my Lord.”
“Of course,” Warwick gave nod, “I shall survey the field in due time.”
“It is surveyed, my Lord,” Devon answered and squared on his horse to look at the field, “Your brother sees naught but Scots and they are led by a young King and a Neville.”
Humphrey turned back to Warwick, “Begging your pardon, sir.”
“Very well,” Warwick straightened his armor and gestured for his own mount, “Gather the Stanley brothers and your cousin. We shall hold a meet.”
Devon narrowed his eyes in confusion, “It is done, my Lord. As I say. The Prince has met with them and holds a position. He requests you in person at the now.”
The Earl of Warwick chuffed as he lifted to his horse with irritation, “Then lead on and we shall see what this boy has to offer.”
They found Prince Edmund at the crest of a ridge looking down upon the moor. He was mounted and surrounded by Lord Montagu and Sir Leighson. As Warwick rode up, the Prince turned in his saddle, “Rather muggy, isn’t it cousin?”
“And hard to see,” Warwick replied as he trot alongside, “What have you to mind if we cannot place the enemy?”
“They are there, brother,” John Neville, Lord Montagu answered with sureness, “If you listen closely, you can hear them.”
Warwick peered to his brother with some bemusement, “One rescue and you think to be a great military mind? The war whisperer? It was not long ago that you fled the cannon train with our dear Thomas.”
“Which is why we are here,” John sat taller on his mount, “They murdered our dear Thomas...and our father. Percy is gone, but our cousin sits just down that hill.”
Prince Edmund looked to Leighson before replying to them all, “Old wounds may not heal, my Lords, yet we have a duty at the now. We are seven thousand and Sir Henry tells me that they cannot be more than five. Sir Neville himself naught but six hundred. It is a narrow path between the marsh and the hills. If I were...my brother would have marched head on to meet them no matter the odds. I see that we should do the same and drive these Scots from the north.”
“You think to follow Ned into battle when you yourself dislike it so much?” the Earl questioned.
Edmund again looked to Leighson, “Think not to know me so well, cousin. We are many and they are few. It is as simple as that.”
“Your father would be more cautious,” Warwick replied, “He would take his time to be perfect.”
“Would he?” Edmund finally looked to the Earl, “Does he do so at the now in France? And it matters not. He is not here.”
Montagu leaned in, “And it is a good plan, brother. We can chase these bastards near to kingdom come, but better to stand now than wait. If we can remove Neville, the Scots will sue for peace. There is no more resistance in the north.”
Warwick held his gaze to the Prince, “You are not your brother, Ed. You need not act like him.”
Looking down towards the moor, Edmund replied, “I do not try to be my brother. I am here to defeat the Scots and that is what we shall do.”
As he rode off, Sir Henry Stafford joined the Earl, “The Prince would have you to the right, my Lord. Against the Scots King...if that would suit you.”
Warwick looked to his brother, “And you?”
“The center, Dickon,” John answered with a smile and closed his visor.
The Earl watched him ride off and turned his mount back to Devon, “I am witness to my own play, sir.”
“You are the right...sir,” Devon replied, “Shall we attend?”
And attend they did. The battle began with the normal exchange of archery between the two armies. Hardly visible, it was felt nonetheless. Lord Montagu advanced several yards onto the moor before the Scots fell upon him. He was forced to halt and readjust his lines when Prince Edmund entered the fray against the left flank under Sir Humphrey Neville. To the right and in the marsh, Warwick held his own.
Some two thousand men under Sir Humphrey Neville soon faltered when the brothers Stanley came to the rescue and that army broke and scattered. At that, the entire Scots and Lancastrian force gave way. Warwick pressed from one side and Edmund from the other. Montagu dealt the final blow when he slew the Neville knight on the field of battle attempting one last stand with his household retainers.
It was decisive and the young Scots King fled the field in disgrace with his own. Warwick showed great smiles when he met Edmund after the battle, “It was well done all round!”
Edmund held in the reins to slow his mount and stopped next to the Earl, “It was done rightly.”
“And you showed great courage,” Warwick gave nod.
“It was...exhilarating,” the Prince admitted.
The Earl guided his horse to follow the Prince, “The Scots will surely negotiate now. Your father would be proud.”
“Cousin...” Edmund replied before bolting his mount for their camp, “...please do not question my suggestion again.”
As he rode off, Warwick watched and cringed.
Another one.
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Aha. Poor Warwick. He tries. And I'm many cases he has good advice. But he's off now, almost like he's trying to find contrary advice even when the plan is good.
Good to see Edmund getting a substantial victory under his belt. A rite of passage for his princely class.
Also glad to be rid of the Scots for now. How's France going?
Rensslaer
Good to see Edmund getting a substantial victory under his belt. A rite of passage for his princely class.
Also glad to be rid of the Scots for now. How's France going?
Rensslaer
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Warwick might not be loyal for much longer. Edmund should watch him closely...
Will the Scots sue for peace immediately after this battle, or will they attempt to win minor victories and salvage something more?
Will the Scots sue for peace immediately after this battle, or will they attempt to win minor victories and salvage something more?
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Short but sweet - the battle and the chapter.
Good to see him show steel in battle and with Warwick. The latter needs to decide whether he will serve the new King and his successors or himself. If he keeps pushing them, they will push back. And heads will end up on pikes, one way or the other.
I would advise Edmund though not to overdo it. A suggestion should be freely debatable, if done in an intimate group in private war council, but an order not so. And he was perhaps making a point to Warwick by deciding the plan without actually consulting him at all, but that could also be seen as a bit arbitrary, even spiteful. Anyway, it worked which will vindicate Ed and cause Warwick to simmer a little more. How long before he reaches boiling point?
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As others have said there is a fine line between offering advice and disobedience but I think Warwick was just the right side of it. (I do of course realise for plot reasons he must always be on the wrong side of issues).
If that is the extent of Edmund's military thinking he is going to end up on the wrong end of a deeply humiliating defeat at some point.
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The Scots should held a bit more, just one for Warwick to led a charge with fatal consequences for him.
I did pause and wonder when the plan was to use their larger numbers to force through a narrow, defended pass in the middle of the enemy lines.
That was a terrible idea.
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Agreed. It appears the Scots did not employ their schiltron to block the narrow pass and hold the moor. That could very well have produced a different result. I think the English were lucky.
To be fair, by the end of the Wars of the Roses, the English were genuinely much, much better at warfare than the Scots and essentially stopped losing battles to them until the war of three kingdoms two centuries later.
But the leadership could make better decisions here I think.
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Well, Edmund's comment about outnumbering them was stupid. That's not a serious contemplative plan.
But he did appear to have chosen well in terms of who commanded the center and the wings, and it worked out well.
Rensslaer
But he did appear to have chosen well in terms of who commanded the center and the wings, and it worked out well.
Rensslaer