The Wars of the Roses

[Rensslaer]

Edmund handled that well, I think. Responsibly. Margaret was more risky. I wonder how far that might go.

Oh the possibilities this presents!

Conflict between Margaret and Isabella? A Tudor-Plantagenet bastard son? Admittedly I'm not clear on the lineages - she's not Tudor herself, I guess? But she has some royal blood, yes?

That's one reason I'm not drawn to CK and struggle with some of the EU concepts related to marriage. I grew up a single child and only seeing relatives once a year. I barely understood the concept of extended family, much less bloodlines or ancestry, and I still have to remind myself the difference between a niece and a cousin.

In these games you have to remember whole family trees at times, and it's just not natural for me.

Rensslaer

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Edmund has a good head on his shoulders and he should continue to think with it.

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

Well, that's not great. Let's hope Margaret doesn't act on it, and, if she does, Edmund can resist the temptation.

On the other hand, it would be a nice way to cause friction between the Crown and the Tudors...

As if there is not enough tension already between Richard and Jasper Tudor still out there somewhere?

Edmund and Margaret. A steaming bathtub. Shades of Yennefer and Geralt. Methinks some hijinks may be afoot.

Though perhaps a little risque, I enjoyed writing that scene. Possibly the most POV I have written in a while. Margaret Beaufort is such an interesting character to me and she is still pretty young. I've mentioned it before, but she and Edmund are pretty much the same age.

Edmund handled that well, I think. Responsibly. Margaret was more risky. I wonder how far that might go.

Oh the possibilities this presents!

Conflict between Margaret and Isabella? A Tudor-Plantagenet bastard son? Admittedly I'm not clear on the lineages - she's not Tudor herself, I guess? But she has some royal blood, yes?

That's one reason I'm not drawn to CK and struggle with some of the EU concepts related to marriage. I grew up a single child and only seeing relatives once a year. I barely understood the concept of extended family, much less bloodlines or ancestry, and I still have to remind myself the difference between a niece and a cousin.

In these games you have to remember whole family trees at times, and it's just not natural for me.

Rensslaer

Margaret Beaufort is not herself a Tudor but her son is through his father Edmund Tudor. However, she does have the royal Beaufort blood. The Beauforts are descended from John of Gaunt (son of Edward III) through his mistress then third wife Kathryn Swynford. They were barred from the throne by Henry IV but that does not stop them from trying. See Cardinal Beaufort, the various Somersets and Margaret herself.

I should also remind, the Tudors do NOT have royal blood as far as England is concerned. However, they could claim royal blood of France because Edmund and Jasper were the sons of Owen Tudor and Catherine of Valois, who was the widow of Henry V. That is how they are Henry VI's half-brothers.

Edmund has a good head on his shoulders and he should continue to think with it.

Yes...use that head please.

 

[Kurt_Steiner]

On the other hand, it would be a nice way to cause friction between the Crown and the Tudors...

It would be a pity if the Tudors are exterminated...

 

[El Pip]

An interesting pair of scenes comparing Isabella and Margaret B, I fear it might not be the last time those two are compared.

That said Edmund was either good at acting calm or was genuinely disinterested, either way some hope he won't do anything damn stupid. Because given his frankly shaky military tactics I have little hope he would be particularly subtle if he did try and pursue something in his personal life.

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

It would be a pity if the Tudors are exterminated...

Team Tudor - check.

An interesting pair of scenes comparing Isabella and Margaret B, I fear it might not be the last time those two are compared.

That said Edmund was either good at acting calm or was genuinely disinterested, either way some hope he won't do anything damn stupid. Because given his frankly shaky military tactics I have little hope he would be particularly subtle if he did try and pursue something in his personal life.

Much like he was in battle, Edmund is likely to take his older brother as a guide even if he does not possess quite the same qualities or expertise.

 

[coz1]

Paris, October 1464​

With rare back bone, King Charles VII of France sat tall in his throne. His face was pale and his torpor matched. Yet he tried to be as regal as he might. He listened and did not like what he heard. To make progress all the way back from Saintogne for this? He should have stayed and rested under the shade of trees as he imagined the former King of England did these days. Yet Charles was a survivor of this filthy mess and it rested on his shoulders that it should be ended.

The Duke of Norfolk stood next to the Castilian King and offered terms, “His Grace Richard, King of England...and also of France...would have you lay down your arms against his rightful rule to his own lands. In days past, there was no homage required of these lands nor of the Duke of Normandy. As my Lord King Richard is at the now and always has been. You would relinquish all claim and swear to be a faithful and dutiful servant.”

“We are to be his vassal?” Charles looked askance, “France is vassal to no one, Monsieur Norfolk.”

King Enrique of Castile grinned, “But you would have to be...for you are here. And so are we.”

“That is not my master’s wish...Your Grace,” Norfolk showed a slight bow, “For now.”

The French King showed confusion, “So he only wants Normandy? Vraiment?”

“His Grace King Richard would have Normandy in full and...” the Duke raised his neck and looked sharply to the King, “...he would have the whore of England and her bastard child.”

Charles stared harshly at them both, “She is my niece!”

“Not really,” Enrique suggested with a wink, “She is your wife’s niece. She is not your blood.”

“As you would send your own child into such a blood bath as England?” Charles questioned the Castilian King as he pointed to the Princesa Isabella standing behind them.

Enrique laughed, “She is not my child. She is my sister, Señor. Hermana. And I would send my own blood to this land. I would not, like a coward, send a one that has no meaning to you as you did with this lady d’Anjou. Or so it seems to me. Much good it did you, for your realm is ruined and this one...this señorita la putain...has caused you no small manner of hardship.”

“As she has to England...Your Grace,” Norfolk followed, “King Richard would be done with it.”

King Charles sat back in his throne and sighed, “She is a defenseless child. And not very bright. Ma femme...she...the Queen demanded of me to find her match. Talentless, I thought. Who better to bring us peace at the time? And to foist her upon England...our enemy for a hundred years? It was nearly a perfect plan. Exceptionnel!”

The French King lifted from his throne and stepped down to find some wine. He ambled to a side table and poured as he sighed again, “Except. Except...she is a...démon en feu! All of the promise that I did provide...she has...”

“Then give her up, Your Grace,” Norfolk suggested again.

Charles mulled his chances as he rolled his wine goblet, “Yet still...I cannot.”

“You remain Lord sovereign over Rene d’Anjou!” King Enrique became angry, “Tell him to release la putain!”

“I tell you that I cannot!” Charles spun on them with wide eyes, “I can tell them no thing! There is not a man nor Lord that would listen to me in France, monsieur! I am no better than Duc! Why are you even here? You have won! Take your Normandy and leave!”

Norfolk showed bow, “That...Your Grace...is not our fault. We merely wish our gains and that includes...the prize.”

“And I am telling you that I cannot give it to you,” Charles calmed down and tried to smile, “You will have to take me to your King to explain...but he will understand. I am rightful and anointed sovereign. I have sworn an oath unto God Almighty over my nobles and their people.”

King Enrique crooked his brow, “That can be changed.”

“As you so readily do?” Charles looked to the Duke of Norfolk.

Mowbray held up his hands, “His Grace King Richard respects you as his cousin. He only looks for peace and justice.”

“Or judgment?” Charles questioned.

The Duke of Norfolk leaned in and said again, “Justice.”

“Very well,” the French King shrugged, “Have you this.”

He gestured and Pierre de Brézé was pulled along by his guard from behind the throne. The now elder chevalier servant bowed before his King. Charles rounded on him and then looked to the Duke, “This one. This one is your justice. Did up the whole thing and tutored this putain for all she was worth. He may have known her as well for it is clear that she...has known well. Take him and do with him what you will. As a gesture of peace. Mayhap he will lead you to...her.”

“His Grace the King would not care for this figure,” Norfolk gestured, “Yet if you insist, he will grant you an audience. He should rightly be to Rouen by the now. Though I fear that the King will not be happy.”

Charles shrugged and drank down the rest of his wine. Then he turned with earnest eyes and a laugh, “Monsieur...what King could be happy? Today?!”

 

[El Pip]

“Monsieur...what King could be happy? Today?!”​

King Enrique is right there and he clearly was enjoying every minute of that, so at least one King can be happy.

On which note new Norfolk is a grave disappointment, his father would have had much more fun with all that. Perfect opportunity for a Brian Blessed Henry V Armoured Emissary scene and he let Enrique steal it away. Poor form.

de Brézé being offered up as the sacrifice is an interesting one, I do wonder how much influence he did have. I would suspect more a lack of influence, he could have told Margaret she was being unwise and maybe, at the very beginning, she might have listened. A bit. Or she just would have ignored him as well. In any event I would be staggered if Margaret hadn't "known him" so he can hardly complain about his sentence.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Hmm...

In medieval terms, this king of France is a dead man walking. There wouldn't actually be peace with England until either the Plantagents renounce the French throne claim, which they will not do, or the guy who is ostensibly but not really king of France is dead at their feet and his crown solidly on their heads.

Whore or no whore, the former Queen of England is someone they want dead sure, but for the same reasons, they should want the French king dead too.

Given France is on its knees, the king is utterly without support, there is no French army or treasure to keep the English back, and no ally (really) of France to stop them...why is Charles still breathing?

The only reason is because Richard is rushing. He wants the Queen dead now, northern France as his, and then to go back home to deal with Scotland (and do it properly this time. Fire and brimstone Tudor rough wooing style).

He'll be back. Charles knows this. The castilains know this. Norfolk knows this. He has to come back, or Edmund does, and finish the job. France is just too weak but also too important to let go. Charles must be killed, the throne must be claimed in full, and the conquest must extend to the south of the kingdom.

 

[HistoryDude]

Charles seems jealous of Henry now...

Also, Margaret was a plan to get rid of a useless woman? That explains so much. Does this count as an admission that her marriage to Henry was meant to be a trap?

Would Enrique send a hypothetical daughter of his to England? He never answered that question...

 

[Kurt_Steiner]

Good old Enrique knows a bit what's to be unhappy.

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

King Enrique is right there and he clearly was enjoying every minute of that, so at least one King can be happy.

On which note new Norfolk is a grave disappointment, his father would have had much more fun with all that. Perfect opportunity for a Brian Blessed Henry V Armoured Emissary scene and he let Enrique steal it away. Poor form.

Very good. King Enrique gets such a short time in the narrative, I had to give him the room to shine. Rest assured, Norfolk will grow as a character. He's not his father, however, for good or bad.

de Brézé being offered up as the sacrifice is an interesting one, I do wonder how much influence he did have. I would suspect more a lack of influence, he could have told Margaret she was being unwise and maybe, at the very beginning, she might have listened. A bit. Or she just would have ignored him as well. In any event I would be staggered if Margaret hadn't "known him" so he can hardly complain about his sentence.

Pierre de Brézé most definitely slept with her at some point.

That said, I should say at this late date that the character is not quite what he was historically. While he was present when Margaret married by proxy to Henry VI while still in France, he did not accompany her to England and instead was somewhat of a player in Charles VII court. I chose to use him differently as her lifeline to her past life and perhaps as her "pimp" if you will.

Hmm...

In medieval terms, this king of France is a dead man walking. There wouldn't actually be peace with England until either the Plantagents renounce the French throne claim, which they will not do, or the guy who is ostensibly but not really king of France is dead at their feet and his crown solidly on their heads.

Whore or no whore, the former Queen of England is someone they want dead sure, but for the same reasons, they should want the French king dead too.

Given France is on its knees, the king is utterly without support, there is no French army or treasure to keep the English back, and no ally (really) of France to stop them...why is Charles still breathing?

The only reason is because Richard is rushing. He wants the Queen dead now, northern France as his, and then to go back home to deal with Scotland (and do it properly this time. Fire and brimstone Tudor rough wooing style).

He'll be back. Charles knows this. The castilains know this. Norfolk knows this. He has to come back, or Edmund does, and finish the job. France is just too weak but also too important to let go. Charles must be killed, the throne must be claimed in full, and the conquest must extend to the south of the kingdom.

I will admit that I had to tease the peace a bit so that it might be believable. Part the reason I had Richard clear that his goal was Normandy. Besides, getting a sitting King to renounce their throne was no easy feat at this time. Even Henry V did not take the throne of France himself. Instead, he made agreement that he or his son would inherit when Charles died. Similar to King Stephen and the later Henry II in England. That is what makes the WOTR unique. In RL, you had one King do it (Richard II) but in this story you now have two. Or do you?

Charles seems jealous of Henry now...

Also, Margaret was a plan to get rid of a useless woman? That explains so much. Does this count as an admission that her marriage to Henry was meant to be a trap?

Would Enrique send a hypothetical daughter of his to England? He never answered that question...

I believe King Enrique would do whatever is best for King Enrique.

Good old Enrique knows a bit what's to be unhappy.

Here comes the time when I shall require your Spanish expertise, Kurty. My thanks in advance.

 

[coz1]

Rouen, November 1464​

He was not tall. That was her first impression. Kingly, mayhap. Yet not tall like all of these others. Many were to the great hall, but this father...this King Richard...he was stout of face and with a thick body. A rugged chin and little hair to his head, but he likely shaved it. Yet he was...short.

Was her future husband the same?

“Dejar de moverse!” Alfonse de Palencia nudged her, “Presta atención.”

“Estoy preocupado, señor,” Isabella answered as she kept a keen gaze to the King of England, “He strikes me as...un hombre malo.”

The Duke of Norfolk stood close and leaned to them both as he offered a wink, “He is not mean, mi princesa. Yet his mood is...not kind.”

The Castilian Ambassador looked to both Norfolk and his man Sir John Howard, “There are Kings speaking, my Lords. These are masters and this one, yet a babe. Atención!”

Norfolk whispered to Isabella, “I’m right told, aren’t I?”

She laughed with him but was still very curious about her brother and these other Kings. One was King of England. One was King of Castile. And one was King of...France? As she knew it from her studies, not very much at all. She had seen him to Paris and Charles seemed a very weak man. It caused her to wonder why it had taken so long for this English King to best him. Or why did he even lose it in the first place? Were these not simple things?

“Aquí aparece tu hermano el Rey,” Palencia suggested with a hushed tone.

She watched as she teased, “I can see him.”

The King of England stood before them all and showed wide arms, “Here it is, my Lords! This castle...this very place! This ground where my son was born! Oh...it was a long time ago and he...he is the reason that we are here.”

Many of the English Lords shifted in the hall and moved toward the center and Richard accepted each of their offered knees, “You, my Lords. You have brought this upon us. This great day when we may say that all has been avenged. It came at great price…oh, a great price!! Yet I did promise to you that I would return what was lost...what was stolen. I may only give it back to you, though I shall never find that which was stolen from mine own.”

“God save Edward the Prince!” Lord Hastings suggested for all to follow.

As they did, Richard lowered his hand for them to quiet, “He was not Prince but mine own, Hastings. And this day is his for I shall dedicate a church to his memory here. The place of his birth. A blessed place.”

“He should be so honored, Your Grace,” Norfolk allowed another wink to Isabella before stepping before his King, “And yet what gift you do give him and to all of us.”

Richard smiled and looked past his Duke, “Indeed...what gift. Is this the Castilian Princess?”

“I do bring her presently, my Lord King,” Norfolk offered a bow as he stretched an arm to Enrique of Castile, “As I do her brother, His Grace the Most Holy King of España.”

“España, eh?” Richard grinned, “Mayhap a bit more to do there?”

Enrique allowed his own grin, “As I have heard many times to these parts, cousin...every man is a King.”

“And a King shall take what they desire, yes?” Richard bounded forward and embraced his counterpart.

The Castilian King was just as jubilant and then backed away to fully present his sister, “And this, cousin, is what I have promised to you. La Señora Isabella, mi hermana y la mujer de tu hijo...a Princesa for a Prince, yes?”

Richard held a firm eye to her, “You have come a long way, my Lady. How does it find you?”

“Mi viaje hasta aquí ha sido aborrecible. Carreteras sucias, ropa sucia. Tanto tiempo y apenas un respiro. Estoy acostumbrado a la belleza, y esta tierra no es nada de eso. Sin embargo, mi hermano me arrastra y así debo ir,” Isabella answered and then lowered her head with a smile, “Sí...I have made progress and it is good.”

“She holds a lung,” Richard turned back to Enrique with amusement.

He smiled, “And a tongue, Your Grace. As I say... mi hermana.”

“Then you grant us a fine gift, cousin,” the English King gestured for them to converse closely, “And I shall be sure to repay you.”

Enrique allowed the embrace, “I should hope it so...cousin. We have spent many a gold coin for both this adventure and her dowry. Your man of France remains obstinate and we should find some thing from this, yes?”

“I have learned...” Richard held a strong arm to his younger counterpart’s shoulder, “...that good compromise makes no man happy. And yet it is peace, brother. I did promise to you freedom in the south. I hold to it now.”

The Castilian King was unsure but Richard held up an arm and spoke to them all, “Yet let us see this man...this King of France that does thwart me!”

“He is here, Your Grace!” the Earl of Kent bellowed for all to hear, “The very one!”

The Duke of Norfolk joined Richard’s brother in law as they pulled forth Charles, King of France, and both offered bow.

Charles did not.

“I miss your letters, Richard.”

The English King stepped to him without a smile, “I held little time to write, cousin. Did I not always say?”

“You only wrote when it suited you,” Charles raised a brow, “Especially when wooing my broodmares. Oui?”

Richard leaned in, “That was a long time ago Monsieur le Roi. Yet, I was honest with you then and remain honest at the now. It is not my fault that you placed your bet with a false King that you thought you might control.”

“Did I not?” Charles offered a wink, “For a time at the least?”

“C'est assez vrai,” the English King circled around his French counterpart, “And yet there is no longer one to manipulate. Not now. When once I spoke to you as King’s Lieutenant in France, I am now King. And rightly so. I would have never allowed the taking of Maine. Nor would I have allowed you to overrun Normandy.”

Charles shrugged, “It is a moot point now, is it not? Une chose faite. If it is yours, then you have taken it. I hold no argument to fact.”

“Though you did saddle us with a nag, sir,” Richard rounded to his front, “And one that needs must be put down for she is lame.”

“You underestimate her, for she is stronger than that.”

“And you overestimate her, for her flies infect all that ride her,” Richard laughed and turned to the hall with wide arms, “And there are many!!”

The French King did not join in the boisterous laughter, “You are King, Monsieur. Le Roi. Is that not enough? Must you punish all that you have defeated already?”

“Le Roi?” Richard turned back to Charles, “Should I truly press that charge? Must I make claim once more on what is already mine?”

“It has been two years already, cousin,” Charles suggested, “Would you care to take the time to fully press it? For France itself would not fall so quickly.”

Richard laughed again, “It has fallen already! And we have been to war for over one hundred years. What are a few more?”

“Time that I do not think that you may spare,” Charles glanced at the Princesa, “It might be a terrible thing to offer a bride to a groom that is no more.”

“You would hold your tongue!” Richard shouted and pressed closely, “No man captive would speak of my son! My sons!”

Charles bowed his head with a grin, “You do hold so many.”

“You are not a gentle Lord,” King Enrique suggested.

Richard followed, “Nor is he my Lord. We do not pay homage to the French King for we are the French King and this one is as much pretender as the last one that I thwarted.”

“Shall you treat me as rudely?” Charles looked directly into Richard’s eyes with a cold stare.

“You should consider yourself so lucky, sir, for I love no man more than this,” Richard turned and gestured to the back of the hall, “Look ye here!”

All looked and there behind all of the Lords and hidden in the shadows was no less than Henry late named King. He was easy to overlook for he was still emaciated from his time at siege and his hair was now thinned and growing white. Isabella especially craned her neck to see him. It was if he were a novelty.

“I trust him implicitly,” Richard followed, “Nor would I lock away one I love so dear. He is family, sir. Close personal kin. And you? A distant cousin that does not treat me with much respect. Now...what shall I do with you?”

Charles looked at both of his counterparts before giving reply, “Castile may trust you, yet Portugal will not. Neither Scotland. The Holy Father would not stand for the complete annihilation of France nor the Emperor. I will grant you your spoils for you have earned them. Yet from that, I hold nothing left to give.”

“Oh, Charles...” Richard held an arm around the French King’s shoulder and squeezed, “...but you do. It is clear to me that you have patched up your relations with Burgundy for they let you pass. So too with the Valois still to Orleans. So tell me why you may not speak to Rene d’Anjou? Is he not still excommunicate? Why have you not punished him already?”

King Charles answered plainly, “If you believe me to be a wretched creature, then you have not put eyes to Rene for many a year. You may not punish a man that is already crushed.”

“Try me.”

“Then as you have reduced me already,” Charles countered, “I have little remaining to enforce any rule to Anjou. Yet you yourself may try and see what this world thinks of it...and you.”

Richard peered closely and then allowed a wry smile, “You are a wily bastard, Monsieur le Roi for I can think of little other reason that you have held your crown for so long. Yet you may hold the right of it...in this at least. Your right to Normandy is forfeit. So too any claim to these or any other lands of my demesne. For this...for this...I shall give you peace and allow you to return to whatever home you may still hold. Yet hear me clearly, cousin...as I will not repeat myself time and again...should I return to these lands, whatever is mine shall be made whole.”

The French King looked to Enrique of Castile in reply, “Then no man may leave this room with bounty...and we are all pleased.”

Isabella leaned into Alfonso de Palancia in a whisper, “Should he not take more?”

“It is the way of Kings, mi Princesa...” he replied softly, “...for they would play a game that lasts far longer.”

Richard merely waved an arm and turned from his counterpart, “Then we are done. And someone bring me wine for we are thirsty and have lands to rule...again!”

As he bounded through the hall, King Charles was led away and Isabella pressed through the various Lords bowing to their King and others trying to escape alongside Charles. She wanted another glimpse of him.

“Mi Princesa!” Alfonso tried to catch her but she was quick.

Not yet tall herself, it was easy to squirm through elbows and hips. She poked through two Ladies and watched as Charles exited the hall surrounded by too few men. Though spirited in his speech, he was no true man. His shoulders slumped in resignation and she spat to the stone floor in disgust.

“That is not a Lady.”

Isabella turned quickly assuming another flirt from the Duke of Norfolk but instead spied the withered form of Henry.

He bowed his head and smiled, “If you are to enter this world and be esposa de un rey, then you shall have to act the part, my dear.”

Placing hands to her hips, she grinned, “Mi padre is long gone, señor. No one dares call me that.”

“And you should pray,” Henry replied as he shuffled away, “For you will need every part of it.”

“Do not pay him mind,” the Duke of Norfolk spoke over her shoulder, “He is addled and speaks little worth.”

She remained confused, “Why does your King keep him around?”

Young Mowbray stepped closer, “His Grace shows him at every chance he is allowed. That is his confidence. He has won back Normandy and provides to all the very proof that he is the King of England in full. Any that might rally to that poor cause...”

“A trophy,” she understood.

Norfolk allowed a bow, “It is ungracious to think so, but...yes.”

Isabella turned to him with a smirk but Alfonso de Palencia finally caught up, “Mi Princesa! No corras tanto!”

“I fear I must leave you, sir. Yet I shall see you to...Inglaterra," Isabella bowed to Norfolk and spoke in perfect English.

He bowed once and then showed his well known smile, “And you, mi Princesa. We shall all embark upon a beautiful morn. Un bonito amanecer. A new day made brighter by your own presence.”

The Princesa held his gaze as the Ambassador led her away and Norfolk turned to his man Sir John Howard, “That one...that one is red hot, sir. Our Prince may not know what to do with her.”

“We need not another she-wolf,” Howard looked after with some disdain.

Mowbray laughed, “Oh no, sir! She is not that. Yet he had best get in his training for he will need it.”

“I shall refrain from further comment, my Lord,” Howard answered with droll enthusiasm.

“Good!” Norfolk slapped him to the backside and moved to follow Richard, “Our King has found victory this day. Let us all celebrate!”

End of Chapter 25​

 

[Rensslaer]

Heh I share the concern that Edmund may not know what to do with her. She is red hot indeed. But I sense she will be an ally and not an adversary, and so they will work out together a good working arrangement.

Isabella is still somewhat naive and rude it seems. Not polished. Opinionated but not always fully informed. That may actually put her at a disadvantage with Edmund and assist in a balanced arrangement and sharing of many things.

The humor or teasing about the King of Spain was because Spain seems still more a notional concept?

Very interesting!

Rensslaer

 

[El Pip]

A fine end to a chapter. Some things concluded but more setup and promised for the future.

Charles is playing a very poor hand quite well, while Isabella clearly has much to learn (about the EU IV game mechanics, because that appears to be the only reason Richard isn't putting France out of everyone's misery).

There could be an interesting race developing, will Enrique become King of Spain before Richard is recognised as King of France?

 

[Historywhiz]

Charles is playing a very poor hand quite well, while Isabella clearly has much to learn (about the EU IV game mechanics, because that appears to be the only reason Richard isn't putting France out of everyone's misery).

To be honest, given how reduced France has been, I don’t even think Coz’s England placing them under a personal union would carry too high an aggressive expansion penalty.

My suspicion is that Richard is getting up there in years and Coz isn’t sure he can make France loyal in the remaining time before the crown passes on to Edmund.

 

[Rensslaer]

Oh... Two things.

1) What's up with the flirtatiousness between Norfolk and Isabella? Is that a sign of possible future trouble, or is that merely the game played in noble circles?

2) A gentle reminder that the Q1-2024 AARLand Choice AwAARds are entering their final 2 weeks (or less?) for voting, and not many readers of this thread have voted.

Rensslaer

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

It has been two years already, cousin,” Charles suggested, “Would you care to take the time to fully press it? For France itself would not fall so quickly.”

Richard laughed again, “It has fallen already!

Very much so. Charles is playing very dangerously just to survive. England is very much ascendant.

It might be a terrible thing to offer a bride to a groom that is no more.”

“You would hold your tongue!” Richard shouted and pressed closely, “No man captive would speak of my son! My sons!”

Charles bowed his head with a grin, “You do hold so many.”

“You are not a gentle Lord,” King Enrique suggested.

Richard followed, “Nor is he my Lord. We do not pay homage to the French King for we are the French King and this one is as much pretender as the last one that I thwarted.”

“Shall you treat me as rudely?” Charles looked directly into Richard’s eyes with a cold stare.

Is he trying to get killed so England gets wasted fighting the French remnant realms? Interesting strategy...

Charles looked at both of his counterparts before giving reply, “Castile may trust you, yet Portugal will not. Neither Scotland. The Holy Father would not stand for the complete annihilation of France nor the Emperor.

The Holy father would be delighted to see France die. They've been as big a thorn in the Papacy's side as the HRE, and far less viral to Papal affairs.

As for Scotland, there is nothing the Pope can do about them, and I doubt they'd care enough to try. Not when England is this powerful and has an alliance with castile as well.

Isabella leaned into Alfonso de Palancia in a whisper, “Should he not take more?”

No...now I've seen the updated map, taking France piece by piece makes a lot more sense than killing the king and claiming it all right now. England would have to commit to another 50 years of war to get all the indepednants back under their control, and if they don't press those claims, they look weak.

Leaving France technically alive but practically dead is a better idea. Go home, annex Scotland or the lowlands of it, then spend the next few years creeping down to the Mediterranean. Something castile will support too. England getting the british Isles and slowly conquering France, and helping castile take aragon and the rest of iberia, is a nice symbiotic alliance.

 

[Kurt_Steiner]

To call Enrique king of España makes as much sense as calling Richard king of Great Britain.

Here comes the time when I shall require your Spanish expertise, Kurty. My thanks in advance.

I'm at your service, my good sir.

 

[HistoryDude]

What does Aragon think of Enrique's claim to be King of Spain?

I love how Isabella totally dissed her trip and Richard in Spanish. That was hilarious. I wonder if the possibility of secret communications in a different language will become an issue later...