The Wars of the Roses

[El Pip]

I think I come down in-between the two extremes, which is not helpful I know but what can you do if that is the truth?

The "human nature is always the same" argument falls down because quite obviously it isn't. Culture and societal expectations matter and do impact human behaviour. On the relevant topic look at the huge variation in infidelity rates in the world today or indeed just in the last century or so, easily explained by changes in society and culture but less so if you think "human nature" is the driving force behind such things.

I think I come down on religious belief and devotion feeding into the culture and expectations, but rarely being dominant. Rarely is not never, I can't see how you get something like the Peasant's Crusade without a certain level of religious fever and devotion, but I suspect it was more diffuse and vague day to day. So to take oaths, there are doubtless those like ex-King Henry who take them seriously because of faith while there are those (Richard?) who keep them more to maintain honour/reputation/face/etc. And of course the Black William types who see them as just words. Where Warwick sits on that scale will be an interesting question for the future.

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

Ok, so in brief:

Adultery amongst the aristocracy was relatively commonplace in regards to 'lust', that is, passion affairs between nobles and mistresses. This was considered sinful and tended to have political, social and religious consequences.

And courts and noble society was set up in such a way that adultery could not be kept secret for very long if both parties were nobility, due to how, at least in this period of the high middle ages / renaissance, noble women were almost never alone. They always had multiple ladies in waiting arpund all the time, they ate, rode, slept and bathed together.

Men were similarly shadowed by their valet plus typically at least one other male companion most of the time, including bathing and sleeping. So whilst we know nobles cheated on one another, we KNOW they cheated because they couldn't hide it. There are two groups of servants constantly around taking everything in and spreading gossip or being bribed for info.

So secret romances and sex were possible, but very difficult to pull off given how many people would be in on the secret (and how many people would have to be avoided regularly to keep it between two people).

That out of the way, how did people react to adultery, sex with married people etc? Generally speaking, badly. It's one of the few consistent things the medieval church continually believed got you eternal damnation, because it required breaking solemn vows given to God (wedding vows were not between couples but to the Almighty). Women typically faced either execution or more typically a nunnery exile, whilst men much the same, although depending on quite how powerful the noble was, they might get away with doing something suitably repentive.

Societal and cultural taboo of affairs were pretty strong even when mistresses were more frequently apparent. Both families in the wars of the roses repeatedly wrote about how they were being punished for various affairs their ancestors had committed, and the ones they thesmevles were committing.

In regards to how far people believed in their religion...

The average noble prayed 5 times a day in private and attended mass daily, often twice. Public mass piety was high enough (and troublesome enough) that peasant frequently rioted if anyone inhibited Church business or officials, and seemed awfully willing to even kill their local nobility if they got too bad a sinful reputation. Almost every church built in Europe before the early modern period was built through local peasant donations of labour and resources. Nobles put themsvles in debt and gave away large portions of treasure and land to monasteries. The history of the HRE before 1600 is the history of secular rulers struggling with their personal piety, faith in the church and political alliances between other nobles. France spent one fifth of its entire national wealth on the first crusade, which was a religious war in which they did not expect (nor really ever gained) any land or wealth from. It was almost entirely zeal that propelled the first few crusades forwards, and these were by far the largest wars to occur in medieval Europe.


People being people, they still liked to have sex and drink to excess and kill things, but generally speaking they had to work around their faith to do it, worried constantly about whether they were being good Christians, and so on. People believed in their religions.

I don't disagree, really. Mostly I just think believing in it did not really stop them from doing all of the other things (much like now.) That is why I mentioned the Popes. Perhaps they prayed 5 times a day because they were really worried about all of the other stuff they were doing.

@coz1 for me the lack of comment is more that I'm not (yet) sure what to say. Many of your "chapters" (updates) are complicated and have layer upon layer to them. That's awesome for a writer, but I sometimes find it difficult to develop an opinion without reflection.

I'm still not certain what I think about the totality of the scene. But what I've decided so far is that.

1) I agree it would be out of King Richard's character to do as Queenish Margaret suggests. But then she's never been great at perceiving reality, so she may well have convinced herself that he would do this. She doesn't need more reasons to hate him, but she's never let a possible reason go to waste. She will make use of anything she can get.

Careful there. Cecily should never be confused with Margaret. She might do horrible things to you (both of them really) if you did.

2) In light of the question of whether the Queenish believes this line or not, it's interesting that she attempts to convince Little Richard of it. She's such a manipulator that she's manipulating her young son to be a pawn in her plans. Not that he was ever NOT a pawn to her. But it's a motherly betrayal, and perhaps he might eventually realize it as such.

3) Little Richard protests that he's "too old" to study with his younger compatriots. But he protests he is too young to be thinking in terms of what he or the elder Richard might be doing with Isabella, or how to get in her good graces (or how to wheedle into her bed??). How would this even be possible? Wouldn't he be whisked up as a fugitive if anyone even momentarily thought "hey you look kind of like the pretender prince..."?? Might Isabella herself even recognize this, and perhaps turn him in? What if she didn't turn him in, and it was later discovered she was hiding the secret? Is that disloyalty to her betrothed, and might it not wreck the alliance? Is this what the Queenish intends? Or is the Queenish completely oblivious that this is the fatal flaw to her plan?

Anyway, there's so much in this scene that I'm not sure of it all. May develop more thoughts later, but sometimes if I'm not sure of what I'm seeing I wait to see what others say, thinking that your kind and intelligent readers may illustrate things I hadn't recognized before.

Really glad you saw the "too old" to "too young" bits in there. Richard starts off one way and then realizes, "hey...I'm not sure about all that."

As to how it may happen...well, stay tuned.

@TheButterflyComposer @coz1 I once believed strongly, as a student of history, that previous generations of previous centuries were incredibly devout and sincere in their beliefs. That's what we're all taught in history class. But as I've aged and grown more familiar with people in general, and certain people in history in general, I've come to question this. Which places me in @coz1's camp on this.

I think previous generations of humans, be it the 1950s, 1910s, 1850s, 1750s, 1450s, 200s, etc., had very similar human natures to what we see around us today. And that is a lot of people not really knowing what to believe, and often not feeling very strongly in any direction. Even those today who call themselves Christians are predominantly agnostic in actual thought and behavior. How much does it infuse your daily life or lifestyle? Probably not very much, except on Sunday, if even then. I know Muslims who are like this also. And other religions. And yet, polls still find the majority of Christians, other religions, agnostics even, typically have a notion that there is likely a god who would/could judge their behavior, and therefore they should maybe not be as bad as they want to be.

Surely, for instance, American people of the 1910s before WWI were very Christian, and the people of rural hill country more so. And yet Sergeant Alvin York (WWI hero) indicated he was essentially a rebel/irreligious before a conversion experience, and all his friends were too. I/we find this a common account, actually. Throughout American History, even back to the 1600s and 1700s, there are chapters in the more detailed history books about "revivals" of Christian belief. Revivals from what? If they're all mostly Christian already.... This suggests they weren't. This suggests a human habituation toward agnosticism and rebellion that would occasionally reverse itself in revivals.

And, indeed, one of the primary themes of the Bible is the repeated inability of the Israelites themselves -- even those who had SEEN miracles and/or even those who had been chosen by God to be king and given great wisdom -- to quickly give up on worship of their God and enter into rebellion and "do as thou wilt" selfish self-pleasuring activities. "Gosh, you know we haven't seen that Moses guy in a couple weeks now... Going on five weeks. Let's talk his brother into making a golden calf and we'll worship that instead of this Yahweh god that used to hang around with us in that pillar of fire..."

Anyway... I think the idea that previous generations/centuries were very devout and insistently Christian is an oversimplification that flies in the face of much of what we actually know of human history and human behavior and habituation. I can see the arguments in the other direction have merit, but on the whole I believe they're outweighed by the contrary.

Rensslaer

I'm not sure I have a "camp" so much as I have an idea from both my reading of history and my own personal experience with religion. I don't talk about it much because frankly it is nobody's business other than myself and God. That said, my own conversion experience is greatly influenced by St. Augustine and his confessions. I appreciate you mentioning the revivals because that is an important part of at least American history and like examples exist throughout history in other cultures/ places.

I do believe human nature has much to do with it (see below) and believe we ebb and flow not just throughout history but within our own lives. Some of the most professed Christians are also some of the worst people I know. And not because of their Christianity but despite of it. I don't think this is particular to just one faith.

What I want to do with my characters is find their motivations. That may lead them to some strange places.

I think I come down in-between the two extremes, which is not helpful I know but what can you do if that is the truth?

The "human nature is always the same" argument falls down because quite obviously it isn't. Culture and societal expectations matter and do impact human behaviour. On the relevant topic look at the huge variation in infidelity rates in the world today or indeed just in the last century or so, easily explained by changes in society and culture but less so if you think "human nature" is the driving force behind such things.

I think I come down on religious belief and devotion feeding into the culture and expectations, but rarely being dominant. Rarely is not never, I can't see how you get something like the Peasant's Crusade without a certain level of religious fever and devotion, but I suspect it was more diffuse and vague day to day. So to take oaths, there are doubtless those like ex-King Henry who take them seriously because of faith while there are those (Richard?) who keep them more to maintain honour/reputation/face/etc. And of course the Black William types who see them as just words. Where Warwick sits on that scale will be an interesting question for the future.

I agree with this. There is no doubt that faith and religion have played a huge part in most of the history that we are aware of. But there are degrees of it and different people act and react...well, differently. You place some markers well with the characters you mention and I think (I hope) those differences help sketch the characters and their motivations. I've not shied away from portraying some of the darker parts of this history (both from RL and what is invented) because I am genuinely interested in how they might react or how I might draw their reaction. I suppose what interests me is not so much that "human nature is always the same" so much as "how human nature reacts to situations" and while I cannot deny that I may have a dim view of many of these characters from my study of them over these many years, it is still interesting trying to get to the bottom of such as I am able.


To all - Be a couple more days before I post the next scene, but I did want you to know that I finished the chapter and have begun the next! Huzzah!! I won't say the block has been lifted because time is still at a premium, but we may be back on at least part of the track.

Thanks for reading and commenting all!

 

[Bullfilter]

Got behind the 8-ball a bit but am now up to date again on the last two chapters, to whit comments a-follow.

Edmund returned the bow with confusion and no little amount of embarrassment and returned to his chamber. As he entered the room, she stirred. He tried to be silent as he moved to the window in thought but she spoke in a soft sleepy tone, “Where have you been?”

“An appointment,” he answered.

The figure stirred in the bed and sat up covering her naked breasts with the sheets, “I missed you.”

“And I you...” Edmund looked to her with some feeling, “...Lizzie.”

She dropped the sheet from her body with a grin, “Do you not mean...my Lady Grey?”

Had always thought there was a bit of chemistry between Margaret B and Edmund, but either he doesn’t reciprocate or the timing of her play was a bit late, perhaps. Good to see he is able to get Wood….ville.

I was thinking Edmund was doing quite well resisting the temptation. Then you added that twist at the end. Lol Brilliant!

Likewise! His manly compass knows not whether to point to true north, magnetic north … or waver around some local magnetic anomaly!

Edmund doing all his thinking with his 'little head' could eventually get him in trouble...

Two heads aren’t always better than one. It’s good to be the Prince … until that fleshly compass leads him down some dark alley. Still, he’s doing better than in OTL!

I think your father...far too...generous...with the young Princess.

Ooooh, Matron!

Who needs Shakespeare when you have me?

A hit - a palpable hit!

These questions are asked to answer your own.

Haha, the method of one who seeks to avoid admitting anything in an interrogation. Fair enough, if to do so would spoil.

As to this scene, I am somewhat surprised with the limited comments so far

Per above, simply that due to a variety of reasons I had fallen behind. My simple first thought is the Princess is not that young by the standards of the time; it seems something more to do with a mixture of jealousy, insecurity but also caution on the Queen’s part. Appearances are reality to most, so the Firm needs to take care. Ironically, she fears Richard mowing Edmund’s lawn, while the son is off making hay elsewhere! What a mess!

 

[Rensslaer]

@coz1 my most grievous apologies to the author... And my entreaty to NOT tell Queen Cecily...

I must admit, I was so thrown by Dr. Morton, knowing that he had previously been doing Margaret's bidding, that I completely missed the multiple times you referred to Cecily. I somehow thought the whole scene was Margaret talking to her son (who I now realize is Edward, not Richard -- she wouldn't have named him Richard). And was wondering how she expected her son the no-longer-crown-prince to have any association with Isabella.

Anyway, now that I re-read the passage in sobriety it obviously has a whole different meaning. I guess I am a little surprised that Cecily would suspect her husband of dalliance with Isabella. It doesn't make sense. Is she really so untrusting? They always seem to have had a very close relationship, even when away from each other.

But I suppose there's some sense in having Richard become a friend to Isabella while Edmund is busy with other... activities. Him serving as spy does give her an insight into what's afoot.

Gosh, I cannot believe I literally missed your many references to Cecily and got so off track! In looking back it was definitely Dr. Morton who threw me off in the first place, and I never recovered.

But in light of that -- of Dr. Morton -- this means that Margaret has an agent in King Richard's own camp. And TEACHING his children!! That's a serious lever. I wonder exactly what he's teaching. And though Cecily is suspicious and wants to make sure he teaches true, I wonder if she even suspects what he MIGHT be teaching them. Very interesting!

Rensslaer

 

[El Pip]

But in light of that -- of Dr. Morton -- this means that Margaret has an agent in King Richard's own camp. And TEACHING his children!! That's a serious lever. I wonder exactly what he's teaching. And though Cecily is suspicious and wants to make sure he teaches true, I wonder if she even suspects what he MIGHT be teaching them. Very interesting!

It is a bit odd when you think about it. Cecily off concocting paranoid plots about her husband and trying to rope her children into spying on him, while employing Dr. Morton as a tutor. It is perhaps good politics to forgive people like him and let them return to England, if only to stop them plotting from abroad due to lack of any other option. But surely there are limits, you don't actually need to give him such an important job with no oversight.

 

[Historywhiz]

with no oversight

I very highly doubt this is the case, whether Dr. Morton realizes it or not…

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

Had always thought there was a bit of chemistry between Margaret B and Edmund, but either he doesn’t reciprocate or the timing of her play was a bit late, perhaps. Good to see he is able to get Wood….ville.

Edmund is young-ish for this age still and with what may be many ladies throwing themselves at him, it is hard to resist. Yet I did find it interesting to consider that Margaret B. may have a particular crush.

Ooooh, Matron!

This always makes me laugh!

A hit - a palpable hit!

Haha, the method of one who seeks to avoid admitting anything in an interrogation. Fair enough, if to do so would spoil.

Per above, simply that due to a variety of reasons I had fallen behind. My simple first thought is the Princess is not that young by the standards of the time; it seems something more to do with a mixture of jealousy, insecurity but also caution on the Queen’s part. Appearances are reality to most, so the Firm needs to take care. Ironically, she fears Richard mowing Edmund’s lawn, while the son is off making hay elsewhere! What a mess!

In OTL, Richard died and Edward was left to be the only thing in town. Here, Richard lives and has three sons ready and willing to start playing at Prince. A different dynamic, I thought. Best to have some fun with it.

@coz1 my most grievous apologies to the author... And my entreaty to NOT tell Queen Cecily...

I must admit, I was so thrown by Dr. Morton, knowing that he had previously been doing Margaret's bidding, that I completely missed the multiple times you referred to Cecily. I somehow thought the whole scene was Margaret talking to her son (who I now realize is Edward, not Richard -- she wouldn't have named him Richard). And was wondering how she expected her son the no-longer-crown-prince to have any association with Isabella.

Anyway, now that I re-read the passage in sobriety it obviously has a whole different meaning. I guess I am a little surprised that Cecily would suspect her husband of dalliance with Isabella. It doesn't make sense. Is she really so untrusting? They always seem to have had a very close relationship, even when away from each other.

They do have a close relationship and if you read closely enough, she admits that men will do what men will do. Yet I do think she may be a little worried about the close relationship between the King and Isabella (which I've tried to show but have not enough space to really flesh out at this point due to time constraints and length of tale already.) It could be something. It could be nothing. But rumors abounded during this period (or any period) and I thought it would be natural for Cecily to be concerned.

But I suppose there's some sense in having Richard become a friend to Isabella while Edmund is busy with other... activities. Him serving as spy does give her an insight into what's afoot.

Gosh, I cannot believe I literally missed your many references to Cecily and got so off track! In looking back it was definitely Dr. Morton who threw me off in the first place, and I never recovered.

Now why do I throw young Richard into it? Perhaps because I want to start playing with some new dynamics because we are definitely into alt history territory. I've said before, but I shall offer again - prepare for a very different history from what we know the further along we get. To wit...young Richard, the young Duke of Buckingham and...young Henry Tudor.

But in light of that -- of Dr. Morton -- this means that Margaret has an agent in King Richard's own camp. And TEACHING his children!! That's a serious lever. I wonder exactly what he's teaching. And though Cecily is suspicious and wants to make sure he teaches true, I wonder if she even suspects what he MIGHT be teaching them. Very interesting!

Rensslaer

Cecily does ask as she enters the room. Quite plainly.

It is a bit odd when you think about it. Cecily off concocting paranoid plots about her husband and trying to rope her children into spying on him, while employing Dr. Morton as a tutor. It is perhaps good politics to forgive people like him and let them return to England, if only to stop them plotting from abroad due to lack of any other option. But surely there are limits, you don't actually need to give him such an important job with no oversight.

This part is someone true to our RL history. Morton was indeed allowed back into the good graces of the Edwardian court even if he remained true to Henry and his seed. What I thought interesting here was that Morton eventually settled on Tudor. Does he do so here? Only time will tell.

I very highly doubt this is the case, whether Dr. Morton realizes it or not…

Indeed. The mention of Baron Oldhall by Cecily should make that clear. Oldhall has been Richard's secretary and all around handler of things important from the very beginning. He is not a large role in the narrative but his name should read as "over-site."


To all - Next scene follows in a moment and continues on the themes/plots I've been setting up throughout the chapter.

 

[coz1]

Westminster, February 1466​

The Great Hall remained crowded as many Lords and Ladies had yet to return to their keeps after an especially spirited Christmastide. Those in favor at court did not wish to lose it and several others wished to gain it. Yet for Richard, it had been a working time. There was much on his agenda and he held little patience with festivities.

This Edmund knew as he parted through the crowd on his way to his father’s private chambers. He knew it was to be a dressing down for not spending enough time to court and he was not looking forward to it.

The Duke of Norfolk walked with him to comfort the Prince, “He’ll not bray so loud as that, Ed. There’s loads to do for him and he holds a heavy burden. He just needs to shout about it from time to time.”

“He grows more ill tempered by the age,” Edmund suggested as he allowed a half smile to a courtier.

Norfolk grinned, “Mayhap he wishes for you to take a more workaday part of the ruling, Ed? Take off some of that extreme pressure.”

Before Edmund could answer, the other side of the hall parted and through Lords and Ladies stepped Isabella of Castile with her small retinue. She stopped short and spied the Prince before her with a wary eye. Her slender neck turned only slightly before the Ambassador stood forward.

“My Gracious Prince,” Alfonso de Palencia offered a bow, “What wonder it is for you to have such great meeting with your intended. And here she is, Isabella la plus sainte des princesses de Castille.”

Prince Edmund stood tall and smiled, “We have met, she and I. A most wonderful day, my Lady. I should hope that you remain well to these shores.”

“No estoy seguro de saber el significado de bien. ¿Fed? ¿Vestido? ¿Refugiado? ¿Qué más podría desear una persona razonable?” she replied with a grin.

“She means to say...” Alfonso began to interpret, but Edmund held up a hand.

“I know what she says...” he allowed his own grin, “...and she is right.”

Isabella showed a nod of appreciation, “You have learned my language and I have been so poor that I know not yours so good.”

“So well, madam,” Norfolk corrected with a wink.

She turned to him and smiled, “So...well.”

“I must apologize that I was absent near the Mass of Christ,” Edmund lowered his head, “Yet my time to Lincoln is so busy.”

“Sí...your sister lives to there.”

“And Suffolk,” Mowbray followed, “Good hunting there!”

Isabella was not impressed as she looked up to Edmund, “I found your Ludlow to be superior. Better stags. Why does not your brothers come to these feasts?”

“Have you met George?” Edmund asked with a laugh.

She gave nod, “Sí...to Ludlow. And the Richard to...I cannot pronounce it.”

“Fo-the-ring-hay,” the Prince answered slowly, “It has been in my family for years. Kings are educated to there.”

“So your brother to be King someday?” Isabella teased.

He smiled, “Only if the worst happens. Now...pray excuse me, my Lady. My father the King does wish an audience and he shall get what he desires.”

“I know only too well,” she winked to Norfolk and then bowed to the Prince, “Príncipe mío, volveré a verte... algún día.”

Her small party moved again through the hall and Norfolk laughed, “I know not why you should not wish to spend time with her, Ed. You cannot deny her charm.”

“It is not her charm that claims me, but her age,” Edmund ignored him and gestured for his father’s chambers, “I have known some...mayhap too many...that have been harmed at such tender steps in life.”

Norfolk followed with exasperation, “Tell me not that you remain in league with that Lady Beaufort, sir. She is not to Lincoln. We do know who is.”

“Never you mind,” the Prince held near to the door, “Let me ready myself for papa.”

As he entered, he found Richard bent crooked over his desk eyeing closely a map with poor eyes. The King did not move as he questioned, “Is the road to London so great as that, sir? That a man does not go to see his parents?”

“I hold Lillibet in comfort, papa,” Edmund replied, “She may yet be with child once more, and the Duke of Suffolk holds many duties that you have generously provided to him.”

Richard allowed a snort as he looked to his son with a wicked grin, “For him, I might say. The man is not his father, for good or ill.”

“You should not speak so of another peer with one so close to your presence,” Edmund smiled as he gestured to Norfolk.

“Mowbray, me boy,” Richard moved to Norfolk and placed a strong arm over his shoulder, “You did me well to Normandy. And now you will do me well to leave me with my son. Alone.”

“Of course, Your Grace,” The Duke of Norfolk bowed quickly before leaving the chamber.

Richard then stood as tall as he might with a crooked brow, “You do realize that you are not your brother and no one to this realm has ever asked you to be. Yes?”

“I do not know why that should be question, papa? What has that to do with anything?”

“I am not your fool,” the King moved to circle his son, “Do not treat me as such. You’ve been whoring about with that Lady named Grey. Do not deny it.”

Edmund held straight, “If you mean Lady Elizabeth Grey, then at the first she is a widowed woman and free to choose her path as she sees fit given blessing by her father Lord Rivers. At the second, she is but a poor beggar and no thing else. Our armies did destroy her life, papa. The father of her children now lay dead because of all...”

“I’ll not hear it!” Richard stormed as he shifted to the hearth and poured himself a goblet of wine, “Rivers should be lucky that he still holds a head, by God! That’s no reason to allow his vermin into this house. Your brother held a fancy and I’ll not see you follow him into that trap!”

Edmund cocked his head, “What trap is that...papa?”

The King did not answer. Instead, he downed his goblet and returned to his maps, “Free or no, that does not give you leave or leisure, sir. For you are not. By great pains I have brought to you a wonderful bride. A Princess! Why do you not see her?”

“I’ve seen her just now,” Edmund replied readily, “Charming as usual.”

Richard looked up again with annoyance, “You know what I mean. She is no wee babe, my son. Make no mistake. And the earlier you get her, the better the chance.”

“Dear God, papa!” Edmund exclaimed, “You would have me rape her as Tudor did to Lady Beaufort?!”

The King craned his neck high, “Your mind is disgusting, sir! I mean no thing but to know her. Find her desires and wants.”

“Papa...” the Prince protested, “...she is but three and ten...fourteen maybe? I am near twenty and three! I am a man. She is a girl!”

Richard rounded the table and grinned, “And the girl will be a woman. This one already holds the mind. The rest will follow.”

“Then I should think that you already know her wants and desires,” Edmund shot back.

The King shrugged, “Always viscous rumors. They never cease.”

“And you would never be so foul as that,” the Prince moved past his father to pour his own wine.

Richard turned with a wry grin, “Do you think it possible? Honestly, son! I have never so much as looked at another Lady...another woman...for I need them not. I hold your mother and wish not one other thing.”

“Tis true,” Edmund allowed a laugh, “And all the old rumors were about mama.”

The King disliked the mention and shifted to his son’s back, “I know well the ways of men, my son. It is not uncommon for many to take a mistress. Some more than others, if you should search our French cousins. Yet that does not mean that you should not honor your own. She is to be your bride...your Lady wife, sir. Someday...and I wish that day very soon.”

“Why are you so insistent?”

Richard pointed to his maps, “Do you not see that we are at war? Every moment that I stand to these shores, I am not there certain of victory. Yet I may not leave until I know that you are wedded and bedded and all of it. I need assurance of this alliance with Castile. I’ll not allow Charles to weasel out with his own.”

“Orleans is a very poor weasel at that, papa,” Edmund turned with a slight smile, “And Champagne wishes it. Not us. Of course...assist Meg’s husband. Very well. Yet do you need to go?”

The King stood proudly, “I shall take every step to France until that which is owed is given, sir!”

“Instead of a nice quiet life to England with your beloved Lady wife the Queen and your cherubic children,” the Prince moved to sit, “And as you wish us to visit...here we are.”

Richard stood over him with a hard eye, “You are cavalier, sir.”

“No, papa...” Edmund replied, “...yet I am exhausted by the myriad attempts to press this marriage so quickly. She is intended and as all I may tell, quite content to England. I see that you may go and fight your skirmish and be back by the time wedding bells ring. Why not that?”

“Because I do not wish any other to think that they hold power here, my son,” the King stepped closer, “Your cousin is like to be the richest man in the Kingdom. Mayhap more than we. As your mother has always preached...appearance is everything! Should there be any question, little mice begin to play. We needs must always hold a cat.”

Edmund looked to him with a humored grin, “I am not a cat, papa.”

“Blessed Trinity!!” Richard shouted as he moved for more wine, “Why must all of my sons be fools??”

“It was Warwick that told you of my...” Edmund started to answer but the King stopped him.

“It will always be Warwick, sir! His pounds mean quite a lot in this man’s world and we should do no thing to increase it! I’ve known my nephew for many a year and he has an insatiable thirst. When you wed the Princess, you will place a stamp on this monarchy. It is stable and the people may see the future before them. If it remains question? Henry has still not renounced his claim! And then...small men begin to believe that they are much larger than their frame. Best leave them knowing what is what.”

With a sigh, Edmund stood and poured his own wine. He looked to his father with some understanding, “I shall wed the Princess. As soon as you wish it. I understand. Yet, then will you leave me alone on the other?”

“I give you warning, Ed...” Richard leaned in close, “...they are a Lancastrian flower at heart. Best to steer clear.”

The Prince allowed a grin, “Then I shall be sure to pluck it out...from root to stem.”

The King stood as tall as he might and stared to his son harshly, “Let me be precise, sir...you will treat it as a weed and kill it!”

 

[HistoryDude]

Does that class scene indicate that there is still some support outside of the royal family for resuming the conflict with France? Actually, that might indicate that Morton isn't still on Margaret's side.

I'm confused as to why Cecily is worried that the elder Richard is cheating on her with Isabella.

It's nice to see that Edmund and Isabella get along when they actually interact, although Edmund's acts when Isabella isn't around are worrying. I'm with Richard there.

 

[Bullfilter]

My father the King does wish an audience and he shall get what he desires.”

“I know only too well,” she winked to Norfolk and then bowed to the Prince

Ooh, matr … no, no, just an innocent little comment. Nothing more.

I mean no thing but to know her.

In a Biblical sense!? Ye gods, Carruthers, pass the smelling salts!

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

Does that class scene indicate that there is still some support outside of the royal family for resuming the conflict with France? Actually, that might indicate that Morton isn't still on Margaret's side.

I'm confused as to why Cecily is worried that the elder Richard is cheating on her with Isabella.

It's nice to see that Edmund and Isabella get along when they actually interact, although Edmund's acts when Isabella isn't around are worrying. I'm with Richard there.

I think there is probably general support for restoring all of what was lost in France. As to Morton, in many ways he is on England's side rather than one person or another. That said, he does still believe Henry is the rightful King.

As to Cecily, rumor is a powerful tool at this time (or any other.) As the object of rumors herself, Cecily knows well that perception is reality to many. While true or not, she would rather her husband the King not be seen cavorting around with his son's intended.

Ooh, matr … no, no, just an innocent little comment. Nothing more.

In a Biblical sense!? Ye gods, Carruthers, pass the smelling salts!

Now Richard just told Edmund that he had a disgusting mind.

 

[coz1]

St. Albans, March 1466​

“We shall ride ahead!” the young Duke of Buckingham shouted as he spurred his mount, “Come Tudor! Let us meet with the Earl!”

Henry Tudor looked to Gloucester with question and Prince Richard gave nod, “Warwick brings the Princess so let us be kind. In truth, it will be good to see her again.”

The Earl of Richmond smiled and then joined Hal as the Earl of Warwick crested the hill in the distance with a long baggage train behind him. Richard’s friend Francis pulled up on his own mount to suggest, “Are you not so keen to see your cousin?”

“To be fair, I am not so keen to see any of them,” young Richard allowed, “I should be to Ludlow with George, or mayhap to Fotheringhay and Middleham as we belong. I’ve done my duty as suggested...but the book is my friend and not these.”

Francis Lovell smiled, “Your father has called you to safeguard the north.”

“How well I know,” Richard looked to the distance with a frown, “And yet here we come south again. And we are naught but in our teens. At least Georgie holds the Marches...such that he might.”

Francis followed the young Duke’s gaze, “Do you think that Edmund may arrive as well? To see his intended?”

“I hardly know my brother at the now,” Richard answered, “He is to Lincoln and we are to the north. Mama suggested my role and I...shall adhere to her words.”

“She is formidable,” Lovell suggested.

“Yes...” Richard replied readily as he tried to spy the Princesa in the distance, “...she is.”

Francis Lovell trotted his horse forward, “Do you not think that we should go to meet them, Dickon?”

“Very well,” the young Duke answered and took off.

When they converged, the Earl of Warwick showed a great, beaming smile, “Cousin! How was your progress? I think us all to find a great fete!”

“We are well met, my Lord,” Richard pulled up alongside him on his courser, “Yet does Ed come with you?”

Warwick grinned, “Of course not. Your mother would make it all so proper. He is not to see her until their union.”

“And where is she?” Gloucester questioned.

The Earl pointed, “She arrives over yon hill, sir. It is a great honor that your father gives to you as you lead her to this.”

“Lead her to what, I wonder?”

“Have you grown fond of her, Dickon?” Warwick dismounted and took the reins of Richard’s horse, “For she is not to be yours.”

Gloucester looked down to him with a forlorn eye, “I know it too well, sir. My day will soon come.”

“Indeed it shall, sir,” Warwick grinned, “Especially as my girls will soon be to court. Do you not think it to be a pleasure to see my Anne when she arrives?”

Richard offered a tepid smile, “She is gracious, my Lord. Of course.”

The baggage train finally came to a halt and from the distance another rider approached. Isabella reined in her palfrey just before them all and beamed, “What country! It is... hermosa campiña! And these lands...too early for the stag, but I cannot wait!”

“Yet you must, Princesa,” Warwick gave bow, “For you have other duties to perform before the hunt.”

“Ah yes!” she laughed, “I am to be married and then I shall find my buck.”

Richard dismounted and stepped towards her, “It has been too long, my Lady. I am well met to see you.”

“And I you!” Isabella countered as she too took step from her mount, “You spend too much time to this north and not at court. Es una pena para ti! I would like to see you more...often. Más a menudo.”

The Earl of Warwick gathered the young Duke of Buckingham and the Earl of Richmond to him and bade them all bow, “Madam, it is our pleasure to escort you to Westminster and see His Grace King Richard find this marriage for you with his son the Prince. Do you consent to our protection?”

“What else may I do?” Isabella showed a sly grin, “Mi hermano has been expecting it for some time.”

Richard knelt before her and took her hand, “It is our honor to be at your service.”

“Then may we have a word?” she asked, “Un consejo? Just you and I?”

Buckingham was confused and looked to Tudor. They both looked to the Earl of Warwick and Neville tried to smile, “My Lady...we are expected to London post haste. It would not do well to keep His Grace waiting.”

“He will hold his...anticipación,” she answered and begged Richard to rise, “I would speak to this one for the now.”

Richard looked into her eyes and smiled, “La Princesa would be well served, my Lord Warwick. I would hear her words.”

“I do not think that we should tarry,” the Earl pressed.

Gloucester offered a stern look but it was Lovell that answered, “Our Prince would see a thing done well, my Lord Earl. So would his father, methinks. Should not you?”

With a sigh, Warwick finally gave nod, “Very well. Yet we shall be on the road in short time. Our Lady Queen would be waiting and I doubt a one of us would desire that.”

Richard gestured for Isabella to mount her palfrey again and then led her by the reins as the two ventured out some ways into the fields surrounding St. Albans. When they were finally out of earshot, he turned and looked up to her, “I have missed you.”

Isabella gently reined in her mount, “And I you, señor. Your Fo-the-ring-hay was a beautiful place. Not your Ludlow, but...”

“Few things are,” Richard allowed.

She brushed at her horse’s side as he ate from the grass and smile, “Yet I must admit...I am...maybe troubled...asustado.”

“There be no need to be frightened, my Lady,” Richard led her mount gently along, “My brother is a fine Prince and someday to be King.”

Isabella rocked gently in the saddle as they walked, “He is...amable...kind? Kind. A gentle man.”

“He would treat you with all respect,” Richard answered, “I be certain.”

She pulled in her reins and dismounted to look Richard in the eye, “Yet I do not know him. I know you.”

Richard did not realize it when her took her hand and walked slowly, “You know my father. You know my brother. You know all of us, yes?”

“Te conozco, mi señor,” she replied, “You.”

He stopped and turned to her with a kind eye, “What is your worry, madam? Speak it to me and I will make it right.”

“Edmund?” she questioned herself on the pronunciation, “Edmund...Ed, he is called by so many...will he be true?”

Richard gave quick nod, “Of course he would!”

“Even though…” she teased her own thoughts, “...debo cuestionar...I hear so many things. He does...tener otro.”

Gloucester smiled, “Do you fear that he will not love you?”

“Amor?” she laughed, “Who holds such? Mi hermano has none and yet...I wish not to...compita.”

The young Duke led her to a rock so they might sit together and held her hand still, “I cannot say how things may go, mi Princesa. Only that my brother is an honest and true Prince. He holds a great heart and is none but caring for those that come before him.”

“And you know him so very well?” she questioned, “For I do...hear stories.”

Richard laughed and looked to her with an earnest eye, “I have heard stories about you, madam. I am away so I do not know court life as it is...yet...”

“Nunca he tocado a tu padre!” she pulled away, “These are lies!”

“Easily disputed, my Lady,” he offered a caring visage, “Yet so many things may persist. Were I you? I would pay them no mind as you know well the truth. And as I tell you...Ed is true.”

She was not convinced, “So this...Lady Grey? Señor de Palencia...he does say...”

“You would do well not to listen so much to your ambassador, my Lady,” Richard answered, “He holds one role and you hold another.”

“He does not lie to me,” Isabella held fast to Richard’s hand, “I would trust his words. As I trust yours.”

Richard smiled, “I have not known you for very long, mi Princesa...though every moment of it has been a pleasure.”

“Sí,” she quickly answered with her own smile.

“So I may only tell you that I would look after you as much as I am able,” he replied and brushed her cheek with his hand, “You should have no fear. Especially not from Edmund.”

Isabella lowered her head in thought and then smiled to him again, “You are very nice...do they call you...Dickon? What means this?”

He laughed, “It is a nickname...a closeness...a familiarity.”

“Familia... sí,” she gave nod.

“Not quite...but close,” Richard replied as he pulled her hand to his chest, “Do not worry, my Lady. We are soon to Westminster and you shall then be our Lady of Wales and then Queen someday. Would your brother wish anything else?”

Isabella looked at him for a time and then leaned over to kiss his cheek, “All say that you so very serious. And yet I find you...dulce...sweet.”

He looked to his feet in answer, “I may not say that I love such a reputation.”

“I know not why, señor,” she replied and leaned into him again, “Prince of York...Lord of Gloucester...una persona muy amable.”

Richard looked to her with a gentle smile, “We are young...Isabella. Who may know what our future holds?”

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

This is going to end great, I can tell.

 

[Historywhiz]

The lovely princess and the hunchback (yes I know it’s only scoliosis), oh you are making Shakespeare a very wealthy and happy man one day!

 

[Rensslaer]

@coz1, responding to the previous update only...

I continue to enjoy Isabella's personality and teasing. I have to use a translator for the Spanish portions, but when I do I realize she's brilliant and playful. Edmund doesn't give her enough credit. She's savvy, even as a young woman.

So I do now finally understand what King Richard's real fear is. He's king of the hill, but he fears he can still be pushed off (justifiably so). By securing the succession -- a legitimate heir with a legitimate heir's heir -- he ensures that it'll be far more difficult to push his family off that hill.

And I also now finally understand his fear of Warwick, and his reasons for not wanting to give him more riches or power. He senses that he might do what he did historically. He's a threat, apparently even by himself, or because Henry still lives.

Excellently written piece! I read this one twice before posting. I find that I am unfamiliar with the customs, the specific meanings and politics of lineage, etc. These things are so important in the 1400s, and my knowledge of history is so much more "at home" in the 19th and 20th Centuries. It's harder for me to sense the delicate undercurrents of the dialogue or shifting ground.

But this is truly inspired work!

Rensslaer

 

[Rensslaer]

...

Columbo voice: "Oh... There's just one last thing..."

Why does Isabella tease Norfolk and Edmund with the "I know only too well" comment? It seems to play up the idea that King Richard is maybe being more familiar with her than is proper.

I take it, from available evidence, that that is NOT the case. It seems like she would be less interested in Edmund if she were involved with her father.

But she plays with it, and teases.

Why?

Rensslaer

 

[Rensslaer]

On your latest delightful scene...

Warwick is afraid of her being closer to Richard than to Edmund. Not an undue concern.

And Richard seems closer to her than to Edmund, which may make him the enforcer when it comes to making sure Edmund remains true.

An interesting situation developing!

Rensslaer

 

[Bullfilter]

“He will hold his...anticipación,”

Richard smiled, “I have not known you for very long, mi Princesa...though every moment of it has been a pleasure.”

More delicate flirting, but I think more in the manner of chaste courtly discourse than anything more … earthy. Richard seems not to be ruled as much by the manly compass as some.

Richard looked to her with a gentle smile, “We are young...Isabella. Who may know what our future holds?”

Let’s hope he gets a decent ‘history as told by the winning side’ run here and that his future does not involve arachnids and bottles!

 

[Lord Durham]

I've fallen behind by a couple of installments, @coz1, but I vow to catch up by the weekend.

 

[HistoryDude]

I feel like Isabella's concerns might be founded. Can Cecily convince Edmund to be true for pragmatic reasons?

Isabella and Dickon's relationship might cause problems in the future. Hopefully it doesn't... escalate. We don't need a repeat of Margaret of Anjou.