Tinto Maps #18 Persia & Caucasus Feedback

[Ispil]

It would be too confusing and go against the "purpose" of the tag

But what do you do when, say, the Jalayirids split into three competing branches: one at Baghdad, one at Tabriz, and one at Sultaniyyah?

There's a reason why, towards the end of my stint at M&T, that we were moving towards removing all of those "dynastic" tags in favor of "regional" ones. What you're proposing (Ottomans remaining Ottomans no matter who rules them) wasn't a feature of EU4; it was a limitation.

In an ideal world we'd have CK2-style "regional name that is replaced with dynastic name under the right conditions" setup that can just be done in script to avoid all these problems.

 

[Aramenian]

Both under the rule of the Safavids and the local Armenians, the province of Artaz was part of Armenia.

Erivan province​

Erivan province (Safavid Iran) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You can also rename the Armenia region to Yerevan and add the lands of the Arran province to the region as shown on the map below.

From the province of Hoy a new province should be carved out, called Artaz

Artaz Province should be part of the Armenian Area since this province was not part of historical Azerbaijan.

Mughan Plain Should be part of Historic Azerbaijan and not part of Shirvan.

 

[ZigTheNorweigan]

After looking at the feedback map i think the devs have done a really good job for the country placements and additions with only a few tweaks that some people have mentioned here (Circassia comes to mind and maybe some parts of the Caucasus and Armenia).

However i am pretty disappointed at the lack of new locations and increase in location density especially in areas of the Caucasus and especially the north east Caucasus. Could i recommend splitting some locations in these areas especially so you can depict the polities more accurately? For example i think the OPM of Rutul should be split into two so Tsakhur can also be represented.

The location of Rutul should be split in half with the western half of the valley made a new location and a new polity in place which would be Tsakhur while Rutul would stay the same on the eastern side of the valley

 

[GenericUsername1444]

I've already written about this in the old thread, but I'll reiterate it here:

I think Georgia should have cores and claims on the land it had lost during the Mongol occupation, namely the locations of Shamkor and Gardman as cores, and the province of Arran and the locations of Julfa and Nakhchivan as claims.

According to the Historical Atlas of Georgia, in the 1330s, "in the extreme southeast the provinces of Shamkor and Gardman were lost". These territories used to be core parts of the kingdom since the early 12th century. Additionally, the provinces were majority Christian and populated by "accepted pops", in in-game terms. Thus, I think it would make sense to give Georgia cores over this land at game start.

The Emirates of Ganja and Nakhchevan were tributaries of the kingdom also since the 12th century. Hence, I think it would be fitting to make these lands as outlined below a claim of the kingdom. I would like to mention that the Zhamtaaghmts'ereli, the official court chronicler of the 14th century, (whose writings are seen as quite reliable in Georgian historiography) asserts that these lands were once again made into tributaries by the end of Giorgi V's reign in the late 1340s, which I think vindicates my suggestion.

 

[Ekyman]

Development

I feel like the area circled in white below (Khorasan and Transoxiana) should have more development, especially when compared to Arabia and Kurdistan.

It has been 80+ years since the Mongol invasion, and many of the previous Ilkhans initiated several reconstruction, repopulation and agricultural projects to revitalize the devastated regions, having imported labour from across the Mongol empire, such as Khitans/Chinese.

Strongly agreed here. Many of these places had rebuilt and returned to prosperity. And we’re still pre-Timur so those effects haven’t been felt yet.

In Khwarazm, Urgench should be the location with the highest development and it should be noticeably into at least yellow.

 

[Linbot#6018]

Islamdomic polities were much less stable than those in Christiandom, and combined with the lack of inheritance through female lines makes dynastic naming much more appropriate for Muslims than Christians.

One idea I had was for the "full name" of Muslim polities to be "[dynasty] of [place]" so for instance you would have the "Jalayirids of Baghdad". This would be useful in particular for distinguishing the multiple states when an empire fragments into parts ruled by the same dynasty. This happened in particular to the Timurids for example. Of course, this would require the game to actually be able to allow that to happen, which wasn't the case in eu4. But that's just a particular aspect of paradox games being extremely bad at simulating islamic empires.

 

[SuperLexxe]

Strongly agreed here. Many of these places had rebuilt and returned to prosperity. And we’re still pre-Timur so those effects haven’t been felt yet.

In Khwarazm, Urgench should be the location with the highest development and it should be noticeably into at least yellow.

I'm not sure about prosperity, but certainly returned to productivity, which was the goal of the mid-to late Ilkhans to increase their tax income. Let's not forget that some of the lands the Mongols took were entirely turned to pasture.

Notably, it was common for nomadic troops to raid the "subjects" they were supposedly there to govern. This is because they were not salaried, and when there was no war, the sedentary "subjects" were just as valid targets as the neighbouring countries, because sedentary people were the same as cattle (to the nomads).

 

[Ekyman]

I'm not sure about prosperity, but certainly returned to productivity, which was the goal of the mid-to late Ilkhans to increase their tax income. Let's not forget that some of the lands the Mongols took were entirely turned to pasture.

Notably, it was common for nomadic troops to raid the "subjects" they were supposedly there to govern. This is because they were not salaried, and when there was no war, the sedentary "subjects" were just as valid targets as the neighbouring countries, because sedentary people were the same as cattle (to the nomads).

Urgench at least is described as prosperous and populated under the Mongols. What happened in Khwarazm is that Urgench, the most important city even pre-Mongols, redeveloped quite quickly and extensively, but many of the smaller cities in the region were much slower to recover.

 

[GenericUsername1444]

Also, I've no idea how we and the devs missed such an obvious detail, but we did.

The map we've used to model Georgia clearly shows that Kldekari is NOT under Alastani, yet our map for some reason shows it being so.

Thus, if none of my location changes suggestions take into effect, the borders of Alastani should be like this in-game:

 

[racnes]

Erzurum should also be under the rule of Eretnids
The city came under the rule of the Sutayids probably sometime in 1338, then the dulkadir attacked the Eretnids.

Erzurum should stay in Sutayids

Also, for extra info about Bayburt and Erzincan

 

[racnes]

Harput, Ribat-i Keban and Sivrice locations should owned by Eretnids as @Aramenian and @Ispil said, also here is the offical municipality website about county's history saying the same thing

As for the city of Harpoot, it should be owned by Eretnids

Zayn al-Din Qaraja - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So, doing some review, my conclusions are:

• Harput and Keban should belong to Eretna (conquered by the Dulkadirids in 1338)

Also about Sivrice, Ispil is quite right. Sivrice founded in Turkish Republic and if you look at geographical view of the area, you can see its making much more sense Eretnids/Sutayids controlling it rather than Egil Emirate.

Also @Pavía, something funky is going on with Egil and Ergani as locations. Ergani is immediately due east of Sivrice, and Egil is southeast of Ergani. However, as per their locations on the map, Ergani is somehow south of Egil?

The Bulduqani definitely hold Egil, but what else they hold aside from that is... well, left to the mapmaker's discretion. Feel free to give Sivrice back to the Sutayids if it doesn't align correctly after moving Egil and Ergani around.

1. To Doger
2. To Sutayids
3. To Bohtan

Make the Artuqids the city-state that they always were.

Agree, though not Nusaybin and Midyat. Artuqids were controlling those areas at the time, one of the proofs of that is they attacked Ayyubids in Hasankeyf in 1336 which is the only way to go there is through Nusaybin and Midyat if you look geographic view of the area. Also it writes Ayyubids asked help of Bohtan Emir of Izzeddin al-Bohti which called as "Fınık Castle's ruler" that is in Cizre, which is the main settlement of the Emirate (link). So in conclusion, Midyat and Nusaybin's situation is not really clear at the time of who controls. But If you look geographic features of the area and other events in history, its most likely the Artuqids who controls the locations.

For Döger (1), if you look at the geographic view of the area, Rasulayn falls behind the river that seperates modern Şanlıurfa and Mardin provinces and every settlement below Rasulayn follows the river, so it makes so much sense that Döger/Mamluks controlling that locations rather than Artuqids. I researched for this topic but couldn't find much about who controllin these but I believe it was Döger/Mamluks.

Also for a side note, Emir Sutay (Governor of Diyarbakir) called as "ruler of Mosul, Sinjar, Telafer and Cezire"; also again, when you look at the geographic view of the Sinjar area, you can see it makes more sense to being controlled by Sutayids rather than Artuqids in north.

Vilâyet-i Ermen Vâlisi Emir Sutay Noyan ve Sutaylılar

Marmara Türkiyat Araştırmaları Dergisi | Cilt: 8 Sayı: 1

dergipark.org.tr

I am not sure and couldn't find about situation of Barqa'id location. You can give it to Sutayids ot Bohtan.


Also there should be Çermik and Palu Emirates which is from the same family/dynasty of Egil Emirate. You can read a good summary of that here https://tr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palu_Beyliği

By the time, I guess the leader of The Egil Emirate would be Emir İsa, Çermik would be Emir Hüseyin, Palu would be Emir Timurtaş. They are all brothers btw.

 

[Bisonmask]

I agree with calling the region Iran but the name Persia is not disrespectful, it's just an exonym, no one in Germany gets offended if you don't call their country Deutchland

At no point in German history was it ruled by an authoritarian strongman that changed it's German name to "Germany"

All states and peoples do not have similar relationships with their exonyms, especially not with ones of European origin

 

[matfer13]

I don't think that the location of Modigliana(near Florence) should be considered as part of the HRE

 

[L1nk48]

I’d like to suggest adding several new provinces in southern Dagestan. I’ve marked Akhtsagh (Akhty) in red — it should either be an independent tag or part of Lekia (a corridor to Sheki is possible, as there are settlers from Sheki in Akhtsagh, though its inclusion remains somewhat debatable).
Tsakhur, marked in green, should be an independent tag.
Additionally, it may be worth separating the southwest of Tpig and the northwest of Kurakh into a province called ChӀaʕ (Rich), which, like Akhtsagh, could either be independent or part of Lekia.

 

[L1nk48]

and I would like to add that Akhty, Kaytag, Tsakhur and Lekia were more feudal than tribal

 

[GenericUsername1444]

and I would like to add that Akhty, Kaytag, Tsakhur and Lekia were more feudal than tribal

Not really, most of the Lezgin and Avar Tukkhums were basically like a "council of 10 elders that have control over this village and its surrounding valley" rather than the typical feudal "I own this land and its serfs and my children will inherit this domain after my death".

Oh, and I think these countries should be tributary subjects of Georgia, as we have evidence that Giorgi V campaigned in Circassia, Alania, Dzurdzuketia, and Dagestan in the 1320s.

 

[L1nk48]

Not really, most of the Lezgin and Avar Tukkhums were basically like a "council of 10 elders that have control over this village and its surrounding valley" rather than the typical feudal "I own this land and its serfs and my children will inherit this domain after my death".

Oh, and I think these countries should be tributary subjects of Georgia, as we have evidence that Giorgi V campaigned in Circassia, Alania, Dzurdzuketia, and Dagestan in the 1320s.

I agree with you; however, during this particular period, Akhty should be represented either as a beylik or an emirate, while Tsakhur would more accurately be a khanate with an elective monarchy.
Free communities governed by councils of elders from neighboring villages—known as "mountain democracies"—included Rutul (which, according to some sources, may have had a theocratic structure), Rich and the Koshan. Notably, Akhty returned to this form of mountain democracy, if I’m not mistaken, in the 18th century.
As for vassalage under Georgia, I don’t deny that it may have occurred; however, during this timeframe, southern Dagestan was more likely under the influence of the Golden Horde, although local polities continued to maintain their own diplomacy and trade with Georgia.
One could say this territory was within the sphere of interest not only of Georgia and the Golden Horde but also of Shirvan to some extent.

 

[GenericUsername1444]

Since the information about this time frame is so scarce (due to Timur's shenanigans), we don't actually know who the wife of Giorgi V is.

According to the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy:

"King Giorgi’s wife could have been either: (1) the daughter of Mikhael Megas Komnenos (emperor in Trebizond 1343-1349), suggesting that the marriage would probably have taken place only after Mikhael returned to Trebizond from Constantinople in [1341], meaning that she could not have been the mother of King Davit IX; or (2) an unrecorded daughter of Emperor Mikhael IX, who would have been born in the late 13th/early 14th century (and so could have been Davit’s mother) and was ignored by Byzantine sources.

Hence, it's up to the developers to decide which queen to choose. It's quite an important decision, by the way - giving Georgia a scripted royal marriage with either Byzantium or Trebizond will definitely impact the way the game plays out.

So, historicity is one thing, but gameplay must also be considered.

 

[L1nk48]

I’d like to suggest adding several new provinces in southern Dagestan. I’ve marked Akhtsagh (Akhty) in red — it should either be an independent tag or part of Lekia (a corridor to Sheki is possible, as there are settlers from Sheki in Akhtsagh, though its inclusion remains somewhat debatable).
Tsakhur, marked in green, should be an independent tag.
Additionally, it may be worth separating the southwest of Tpig and the northwest of Kurakh into a province called ChӀaʕ (Rich), which, like Akhtsagh, could either be independent or part of Lekia.View attachment 1279148

In the newly proposed provinces, paganism should be the dominant religion, with Islamic and Christian minorities present.
Akhty saw the construction of a mosque as early as the 8th century, likely due to Arab influence via Derbent. In Rutul and Tsakhur, mosques appeared in the 11th–12th centuries, marking the gradual Islamization of the region.

 

[GenericUsername1444]

Here are some useful books about the Georgian Jews and their historical-geographical distribution (the 2nd book is in Russian, maybe @Alexivan can translate for you )

The Caucasian Jews are of the Gurji culture, which has Georgian as language.

I personally disagree with this categorisation.

Georgian Jews, who were markedly different from their neighbouring Caucasian Jews, 1. never regarded themselves as same group and 2. culturally were very similar with their fellow Christian Georgians.

Hence, I think Jewish pops in Georgia should have the Georgian culture and Mizrahi (more middle-east centric) Judaism as their religion.