Tinto Maps #8 Russia Feedback

[Avlakim]

The thread on the Old/Modern Greek language made me think if the Church Slavonic should be the court language of Novgorod, Tver, Muscovy, ... and all those who use Russian?
It was definitely an official writing language for a very long time in Muscovy, but can it be considered as court language like Latin in Catholic bishopries?
I do not know if it has already been discussed.
What do you think?

Both the Russkaya Pravda and the Sudebnik (the legal codes relevant for the EU5 timeframe) were written in the East Slavic/Old Russian languages, not Church Slavonic.
Unless you wanna turn Moscow/Novgorod/Tver into theocracies or make the clergy really happy, there is no reason to make their court language Church Slavonic.

 

[Kompiskaninen]

Karelian culture majority areas should extend way further south, probably all the way to Svir if not beyond. Based on these two maps, one being an ethnographical map from 1878 and the other showing the largest ethnic group within each subdivision of the russian empire based on the census of 1897, Karelians where the largest ethnic group in the western part of the region between Ladoga and Onega as late as the by the end of the 19th century. It makes no sense for them to not be so in the 14th century, when the russian settlement in the north was much smaller and the finnic language much stronger.

 

[Slime99]

Karelian culture majority areas should extend way further south, probably all the way to Svir if not beyond. Based on these two maps, one being an ethnographical map from 1878 and the other showing the largest ethnic group within each subdivision of the russian empire based on the census of 1897, Karelians where the largest ethnic group in the western part of the region between Ladoga and Onega as late as the by the end of the 19th century. It makes no sense for them to not be so in the 14th century, when the russian settlement in the north was much smaller and the finnic language much stronger.

Svir at this time was inhabited by the Veps, not the Karelians. The Karelians had already began their migration to the area already at this time.

Judging by the toponymy and anthroponymy of the census book, the population of southern Olonets was mixed: it consisted of Slavs, Karelians and Vepsians. Karelians were present on the Olonets Isthmus and in the southwestern Onega. This was largely due to the migration flow of Karelians from the northwestern Ladoga. Vepsians lived in vast territories of the southeastern and southwestern Onega, the Svir River basin, and also on Oshta. Ethnographic studies have shown that many Vepsian settlements survived from the end of the 15th to the middle of the 20th - beginning of the 21st centuries.

Этнический состав населения южного Обонежья в конце XV в

Введение. На южном побережье Онежского озера сохранился значительный пласт прибалтийско-финских географических названий. Средневековая этническая история этого региона остается слабоизученной. Это связано с тем, что концом XV в. датируются новгородские писцовые книги, топонимический и антропонимический материал которых остается не вполне востребованным историками. Изучение этого материала дает возможность пролить свет на этническую историю южного Обонежья. Материалы и методы. Основным источником исследования послужила писцовая книга Обонежской пятины 7004 (1495/96) г. Дескриптивный метод исследования состоит в выявлении и фиксации прибалтийско-финских ойконимов (названий сельских поселений) и антропонимов, упоминаемых в писцовых книгах. Прибалтийско-финские антропонимы выявлены на основе анализа формальных показателей заимствования антропонимов. Результаты исследования и их обсуждение. Судя по данным топонимии и антропонимии писцовой книги, население южного Обонежья было смешанным: оно состояло из славян, карел и вепсов. Карелы присутствовали на Олонецком перешейке и в юго-западном Прионежье. Во многом это обусловлено их миграционным потоком из северо-западного Приладожья. Вепсы проживали на обширных территориях юго-восточного и юго-западного Прионежья, бассейна реки Свири и на Оште. Этнографические исследования показали, что многие вепсские поселения сохранились с конца XV в. до середины XX начала XXI в. Заключение. Имеющиеся фрагменты писцовой книги и новгородские акты говорят о том, что к концу XV в. южное побережье Онежского озера было заселено представителями различных этнических групп: славянами, карелами и вепсами. Об этом же свидетельствуют данные антропонимии и топонимии южной части Обонежской пятины.

cyberleninka.ru

 

[Nikicaga]

As posted in the Novgorod thread, Oreshek should own more land, including Ladoga and Koporye https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...f-january-2025-novgorod.1726904/post-30142710

 

[cmert08]

In this thread we talked about pearl mining in Novgorod.

Habitat of Margaritifera margaritifera:

Some text:

"Population. In the Russian north, pearl mussels were harvested for their pearls from the 16th to the first third of the 20th centuries in 157 rivers and streams, but their population remained consistently high and their distribution wide. Huge reserves were found in many rivers in the Arkhangelsk region. Since the mid-20th century, their population has steadily declined due to river pollution, overfishing of salmon and brown trout, and predatory fishing of the pearl mussels themselves. By the beginning of the 21st century, their population in Russia had decreased by at least 85% compared to the initial level."

This is not a historical reference and there is not a word about Novgorod, but it proves that there are enough pearls in Karelia and Arkhangelsk (during the game period, naturally)

Red Book of the Russian Federation, page 84:
mnr.gov. ru/activity/red_book/krasnaya-kniga-rossiyskoy-federatsii/
( need to remove the space )

 

[Atey]

Novgorod-Seversky should be Novhorod-Siversky to correspond with the respective location and Ukrainian dialect in the game.

I believe using ‘h’ instead of ‘g’ for Ukrainian names would be anachronistic since the phonological shift to /h/ in Ukrainian was only finished in the 16th century.

But maybe they use anachronistic names in other places as well… then I guess it would be best to apply it consistently.

 

[Kotyk-durkotyk]

I believe using ‘h’ instead of ‘g’ for Ukrainian names would be anachronistic since the phonological shift to /h/ in Ukrainian was only finished in the 16th century.

But maybe they use anachronistic names in other places as well… then I guess it would be best to apply it consistently.

Firstly, the location is called Novhorod-Siverskyi according to the game dialects and naming logic, so the tag should be called the same way.

Secondly, this is not particularly true, the shift in South Rus dialects happened much earlier.
From Ukrainian sources:

Звук [ґ] у староукраїнських та власне українських текстах передавали по-різному: від 14 ст. в іншомов. словах диграфом «кг» ...

The sound [g] in Old Ukrainian and Ukrainian texts was transmitted differently: from the 14th century in foreign words with the digraph "кг" (kg/kh) ...

That obviously means that in the XIV century [g] sound was already used only in foreign words in southern and western Rus and needed to be represented in another way than г.

And for example a Russian academic Abayev claims that this shift happened much earlier during the interactions with Iranian tribes of the Pontic Steppe (Scythians and Sarmathians who had this sound in their languages):

(Абаев В. И. О происхождении фонемы g (h) в славянском языке//Проблемы индоевропейского языкознания. М., 1964. С. 115—121)

So he actually says that assumed period of XII – XIV centuries is wrong because it is probably too late.
But even if he is wrong, then it was probably before the XIV century.

So representing г as h is not anachronistic for Ukrainian cultures at all even for the XIV century.

 

[Atey]

That obviously means that in the XIV century [g] sound was already used only in foreign words in southern and western Rus and needed to be represented in another way than г.

I am not disputing the chronology of the shift from /g/. I was pointing out that the change to modern day /h/ pronunciation probably wasn’t done before the 16th century. (Shevelov 1977)

I agree that the change from [g] to [ɣ] likely happened earlier but I don’t believe it’s certain that this new sound would’ve been systematically written as ‘h’ in the latin script.

 

[Kotyk-durkotyk]

I am not disputing the chronology of the shift from /g/. I was pointing out that the change to modern day /h/ pronunciation probably wasn’t done before the 16th century. (Shevelov 1977)

View attachment 1251026

I agree that the change from [g] to [ɣ] likely happened earlier but I don’t believe it’s certain that this new sound would’ve been systematically written as ‘h’ in the latin script.

In the XIV century it was another sound than [g], that is the thing everyone is sure about. Everything else is an endless discussion based on preferred sources.

But even this should not matter, because Ukrainian language has its rules of transliteration and just should be consistently applied the same way as thousands of other locations are localised to the modern-day languages in the game.

Like Vladimir is just Vladimir, not Volodimer or Volodemaria because at that time it was Володимѣръ and on XVI century maps it was Volodimer and Volodemaria.
Noone cares that it became Vladimir later because of the Church Slavonic. I do not care about it and I am OK with the modern version. So I do not get why others should care so much about the Ukrainian spelling and transliteration, adopted by the UN geographical naming standards.

 

[purplephoton]

I believe using ‘h’ instead of ‘g’ for Ukrainian names would be anachronistic since the phonological shift to /h/ in Ukrainian was only finished in the 16th century.

But maybe they use anachronistic names in other places as well… then I guess it would be best to apply it consistently.

Belarusian uses h for [ɣ] today so regardless of which of [ɣ] or [ɦ] was used, h is an appropriate spelling imo.

 

[Polesie Admiral]

Considering beeswax is a good now, how about adding it for Pskov and V.Novgorod?

 

[Reimond77]

Guys, it seems that at the beginning of the 14th century, Novgorod had not yet finished colonizing the eastern territories. They were in his area of influence, but not under his direct control.

On this map, the darkening zones mark the beginning of the colonization of the areas.

And on this map, to the east of the Novgorod lands, there is a shaded area, which is signed "the territory of Zavolochye, where the possessions of the princes of Northeastern Russia are not recorded (* not to make out*)."

I can't find these maps in a better form.

Interestingly, in Zavolochye, in 1342, the fortress of Orletsi separated from Novgorod. And before 1380, the Principality of Kargopol existed (marked in dark color).

 

[Reimond77]

The map of cultures of the 16th century. There were clearly much fewer Novgorodians in the 14th century.

 

[Polesie Admiral]

would Muscovy(or other russian princes) have Appanages? for rulers' relatives?(like Serpukhov)

 

[cmert08]

View attachment 1259246

The map of cultures of the 16th century. There were clearly much fewer Novgorodians in the 14th century.

The map shows a group of peoples

Veci ( yellow ) - Baltic-Finnish tribe, from which Vepsians and partly Karelians descend.
Chud ( green ) - is the collective Old Russian name for a number of tribes and nationalities, as a rule, the Baltic-Finnish group (vod, veci, sum, em, Korela, Izhora, Estonians, etc.).

 

[ibvfteh]

View attachment 1259246

The map of cultures of the 16th century. There were clearly much fewer Novgorodians in the 14th century.

Incredibly wrong. Map is showing historical distribution between VII and XV centuries. A lot of migration happened in that timeframe. It is not a map of cultures of specifically 16th century.

 

[Cuke]

On this map, the darkening zones mark the beginning of the colonization of the areas.

View attachment 1255749

This map is from late XII century. It features Rostov-Suzdal principality instead of Vladimir-Suzdal principality (in the bottom right corner), and also highlights Sigtuna in Sweden, which was raided by Russians in 1100s but became irrelevant by 1300s due to post-glacial rebound.

And on this map, to the east of the Novgorod lands, there is a shaded area, which is signed "the territory of Zavolochye, where the possessions of the princes of Northeastern Russia are not recorded (* not to make out*)."

That's Сергей Александрович Шаров-Делоне.

Interestingly, in Zavolochye, in 1342, the fortress of Orletsi separated from Novgorod. And before 1380, the Principality of Kargopol existed (marked in dark color).
View attachment 1255751

No, the legend says that the dark-shaded area was bought (procured) by Ivan Kalita. There is no evidence of Kargopol princes ruling from Kargopol even before Kalita's matrimonial deals, let alone in 1380. Conversely, the princes must have held the second half of Kopor'ye (the one not held by Narimantas) because they defended it from a Livonian raid around 1338.

 

[Cuke]

Guys, it seems that at the beginning of the 14th century, Novgorod had not yet finished colonizing the eastern territories. They were in his area of influence, but not under his direct control.

And on this map, to the east of the Novgorod lands, there is a shaded area, which is signed "the territory of Zavolochye, where the possessions of the princes of Northeastern Russia are not recorded (* not to make out*)."

Not really. There are two shaded areas to the east of the Novgorod lands. The shading you mention (the strip of land in the middle) means the exclusively Novgorodian territories. The other shading means co-ownership with the princes of Northeastern Russia.
So the map doesn't deal with the issue of finished or unfinished colonization. It also suffers from the lack of dating.

 

[Zerodv]

And for example a Russian academic Abayev claims that this shift happened much earlier during the interactions with Iranian tribes of the Pontic Steppe (Scythians and Sarmathians who had this sound in their languages):

There were virtually no Steppe Iranians by the time of the Slavic migration, this makes no sense. We don't need to throw obviously nonsensical theories in the mix just to pad an argument that's already complete on its own.

 

[Kotyk-durkotyk]

There were virtually no Steppe Iranians by the time of the Slavic migration, this makes no sense.

At least the Alans were around the Pontic Steppe in the first half of the I millennium, so it is not completely true.

Also, I posted a book of an academic and a scientist, not of a facebook blogger. Academic Abayev was one of the most prominent iranists that wrote multiple books on Iranian languages and was an honorary member of academies of sciences of the Great Britain and Finland. So I think he really knew something about the Iranian peoples.

Yes, this is a theory and it does not mean he was 100% right, but still I would not throw such words as 'obvious nonsense' to this kind of sources.

Nevertheless, it does not change anything because the XIV century sources from the Ukrainian and Belarusian territory clearly distinguish 'г' and 'кг' to represent two different sounds (Gedimin was written as Кгедимин as the most obvious example).